Trent Horn: Why Do You Reject Catholic Morality? – Catholic Answers Live – 04/08/19

By | August 17, 2019

Hello and welcome to Catholic Answers
live I am cycle at your host starting another what feels like it’s just gonna
be a great week with another couple of great shows for you both hours we have
Trent Horne apologists extraordinaire speaker extraordinaire debater
extraordinaire book writer extraordinaire you could pretty much put
extraordinaire behind virtually any media word and that would be Trent Horne
he’s the author of many books including the wildly popular why we’re Catholic
which is now approaching multiple hundreds of thousands in print hi Trent
hello sigh I guess to save word economy you could just say the extraordinary
trend Horan the owner our previous shows I said I still I would still enjoy the
Magnificent yeah I you know I’m sorry I forgot that I was supposed to be calling
you the magnificent train horn okay I do have still have the objection that it
does make you sound like a magician but there’s nothing wrong with that nothing
wrong with being a magician I just make my objections to the faith disappear Oh
nicely done porn through it really done at the bottom of the stage our topic
with Trent both ours today as why excuse me which Catholic morality do you reject
or why do you no excuse me why do you reject Catholic morality but it could be
any aspect of God right I think sometimes we like to pose the question
which Catholic moral teaching do you reject because some people say well I
don’t it’s not all of it it’s not all Catholic morality but it’s this teaching
on having morality or moral principles that is stuck in my craw I guess that’s
one way Mike Ross stuck in my craw okay so if you have a Catholic moral teaching
that you reject or if you reject the whole thing the whole enchilada of
Catholic moral teaching you are welcome to quiet I would I would be an
impressive even to find someone for sorry is it is Catholic morality obliged
me not to interrupt you when you do something important so perhaps you
should give that number out to people one more time an eight eight three one
eight seven eight eight four to talk to Trent Horne about Catholic
morality but you were gonna say you would be what shocked if I would so if I
asked them do you think murder is wrong do you think slavery is wrong rape is
wrong they say I think those things are all right Wow because because Catholic
morality every single element of Catholic morality now there are some
people who don’t believe morality is even real at all their moral skeptics or
their moral anti-realists who will say well morality are just conventions that
we come up with they’re not real existing things out there that bind us
so in that sense now many of those people may still have personal or other
philosophical objections to murder to rape to genocide to all kinds of things
but if I found someone who just said oh yeah I believe in the exact opposite of
Calvin moral teaching in every respect I just I’d be fascinated by what you know
and I also fascinating how they able they were they got a computer and a
telephone in their prison cell wherever they’re at right but the truth is many
people will say I why do you kept things like why do you
Catholics impose your morals on and when it’s X Y or Z but nobody ever says why
do you why you Catholics always imposing your morals on everyone when it comes to
murder you guys are so negative about murder is that is that what they say you
got I don’t know I’m sitting you guys just hate murder I don’t get what I
guess like more vocal fry’ little valley girl in there you need between the vocal
for a why but that’s it’s true most of
Catholic morality would be identifiable to modern people as at least consonant
with everything they learned from modern morality because they got it from
medieval Catholics well I would say they got it first and foremost from God
though medieval Catholics like st. Thomas Aquinas did articulate it well in
in natural law and understanding Christian anthropology but Saint Thomas
some self-esteem ahead of his time with his work on the virtues there were
people even shortly after him it didn’t consider it proper to teach in schools
because it kind of diverged from standard medieval thought the teaching
of the vert is teaching on the virtues and the passions but then later of
course came to be can be accepted right but I would say that most people the
reason we all tend to agree on morality is because I believe moral facts are
real morality is a real objective thing right and God placed within each of us
the ability to know the moral law at least at a very rudimentary level Romans
chapter 2 st. Paul mentions Romans 2 14 through 15 sorry – 14 through 16 really
talking about how the Gentiles don’t have the Mosaic law well they still know
what the law requires because God wrote it on their hearts he wrote a law on
their hearts in the form of a conscience and we and we all have that now some
people may be deformed in a malformed you may be born with the genetic
predisposition unable to detect morality but that does not show moral truths do
not exist any more than the fact that there are people who were born with
varying degrees of blindness do not refute the objective nature of color or
of different kinds of visual realities beyond us again eight eight eight three
one eight seven eight eight for the number Trent horn is our guests and why
do you reject Catholic morality if there’s some aspect of Catholic morality
that you reject or if you just you haven’t heard anything particularly good
about all of you and you want to let us know that yeah that’s fine if you think
the whole thing’s bunk you call right in I mean there’s people who say you don’t
have a leg to stand on talking about morality with the whole priest candle I
hear that all the time if that’s how you feel
let’s chat about it let’s talk about it why
would the priest scandal have anything to do with you Trent Horne or do you
just generally count what they’ll say is Catholic morality in quotation marks oh
yes tarnished beyond repair by what priests
and others in the church have done in light of recent instances of sexual
abuse or covering up of sexual abuse I see it’s a very common attitude that
I’ve heard and I’m I’m happy to to engage let’s go to Michael in st. Louis
Missouri listening on 1460 AM covenant radio Michael you are on first this week
why do you reject Catholic morality okay I don’t fully reject it myself but I
just have a question on how to just render certain teachings so you guys
have surely addressed this but um in I feet I school and one of the questions
that comes up in the same-sex marriage debate versus heterosexual marriage is
just the traditional understanding of marriages how do you justify that it’s
okay for maybe a couple in their 80s to get married when there’s no possibility
of conceiving a child versus a same-sex couple that we often say well it’s not
ethical that they should be married because it’s the type of Union that
doesn’t doesn’t produce a child by anything it can’t produce a child in
that way so this how would how would you explain the difference between those
from I know that’s more of a practical standpoint that our society’s very
invested in our practices and so that’s that’s where I’m just kind of curious
how you would how you would explain the difference between those two unions both
of whom do not conceive a child sure and so the objection goes something
like this that if you say that a same-sex couple cannot get married
because they quote cannot have children then wouldn’t it follow then other
people like an elderly couple past menopause who are no longer fertile they
can’t shouldn’t why are they allowed to get married even though they can’t have
children either and I think the this objection has force only against a very
weak argument for the Catholic position our position is not that the only people
who are allowed to get married are those who quote can have children that’s not
our position at all it’s up to God whether you can have a child or not
children are a blessing from God and sometimes even people who appear to be
fertile or not so it’s not you it’s not a prerequisite
to get married that you can’t have children the prerequisite is you can
engage in the marital act or to put it bluntly you can have sex you you have to
be able to have sex in order to get married that’s that’s an essential
require in fact even in civil law there are usually provisions to annul a civil
marriage in the case of impotence if the marriage is simply never consummated at
all so the difference here is that an elderly couple that in get they’re
engaging in the marital act they’re actually they’re having sex they’re
engaging in the marital act as it’s traditionally defined it just doesn’t
end and it resulting in a child but a same-sex couple is not engaged in
marital act and strictly speaking they’re not even having sex at all yeah
I mean it’s unfortunate people have this kind of equivocation am I wrong I’m
gonna try not to be graphic or anything like that but they are engaging in
sexual behavior but the sexual act itself only makes sense in the context
of men and women and their reproductive organs aligning towards a life-giving
end even if that end isn’t always achieved they’re still engaged in that
act so to say that the same kind of thing because they can’t reach the same
end that’s like saying that’s like saying a
three-year-old that’s like saying a two-year-old and a housecat are
basically the same kind of thing because both of them can’t read well no one of
them has a made sure to read that hasn’t developed yet and maybe you might have a
20 year old that has illiteracy you have someone who should be able to read who
has a defect so an elderly couple that can’t conceive a child there is a defect
there preventing the marital act from reaching its proper end with the
same-sex couple they’re not infertile in many cases one or both people is fertile
they’re just not engaged in the act ordered towards children so it’s no
reason why they can’t have children they’re not doing the thing that leads
to children so it has no relevance within within the marriage act itself a
great analogy comes from the book what is
by Robert George Sherif Girgis and Ryan Anderson that an infertile married
couple man and woman are sort of like a baseball team that has a shutout season
even if they never win a single game there’s still a baseball team because
they’re ordered towards the end of winning games but nine guys on a
Saturday afternoon thrown the ball around they’re engaged in goods related
to baseball the baseball team though they’re not ordered towards that end and
that’s a similar analogy you can make to a same-sex couple engaged in sexual
behavior and an elderly infertile married couple even if they don’t and
even the marital Act doesn’t end in children so is that is that a helpful
illustration for you yes yeah very much thank you very much strength sure no
problem hey thanks very much for starting us off
this week Michael we appreciate it it is Catholic Answers live you are listening
to the number is eight eight eight three one eight seven eight eight four and
Trent Horne is our guest both hours today and the question for you is why do
you reject Catholic morality if you’d like to explain to us why you reject any
aspect of Catholic morality you are welcome to call eight eight eight three
one eight seven eight eight four triple-eight 31 truth why were Catholic
as I was mentioning has now sold where it’s it’s on the glide path towards two
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about the tough stuff no ecumenical means to bring together those who
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EWTN teaching the truth you have this beautiful compassion and the
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Trent Horne also called Trent Horne the Magnificent
when he is appearing in Las Vegas you catch me seven and ten o’clock a 7 n
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not go to Our Lady of Perpetual look eight eight three one eight seven eight
eight four the number Trent Horne the guest and the topic why do you reject
Catholic morality what is it’s in Catholic morality that bugs you and you
want to get off your chest well Trent horn is the perfect guy to do that with
he will be happy to have a conversation with you about it we’re not hiding the
fact that we’re Catholic but we’d like to know if you’ve rejected some part of
it why has that come about marking Colorado’s next listening on 970 a.m.
mark why do you reject Catholic morality thank you thanks for taking my call I
got an issue with divorce specifically annulment and at the it’s a rather
specific situation it’s my situation okay I’ll just throw it out there and
tell you what and that’s actually my issue I got married in the early 90s I
was baptized as an infant Catholic grew up Catholic we got married and we
married a baptized Christian she was not Catholic got Marian Catholic Church
all that and then about 1213 years later she filed for divorce and we got
divorced and I didn’t want to get divorced I wanted to stay in the
marriage I mean we had some problems we had a lot of issues sure but at the time
I I did not want to get divorced and the way to fit the the way the system is set
up it takes two people get married but it only takes one in at least in the
United States or in Colorado it only takes one to end a marriage and the
other person can want us to in marriage and it ends well Margaret are you
talking about the process of civil divorce or the process of having a
marriage annulled because you’re correct in most states the civil divorce is
no-fault you’re right it’s an interesting irony civilly legally takes
two to get you can’t marry someone without their consent but you can break
the marriage contract without their consent yeah that and that’s definitely
a fault and that’s definitely pardon to fault horse no no doubt there and then
okay so then then after the civil divorce then it’s you know and I waited
I waited six seven years before I even went down the annulment road okay and I
just I think it I have an issue of a person and I know it would be hard to
keep everything straight but a person that didn’t want to get divorced they
got divorced against his will right then has to go through all the whole process
and it is a process of annulment right I just I just I have an issue with it and
I mean I’ve gotten over it you know it took a long time I got through it and
that is a very charged time in a person’s life I get that right but well
mark let me was your was your marriage did it end up being annulled
yeah okay it I first this reminds me I think it’s very
appropriate you called the co-author of my book Laila Miller is a fearless
defender of the Church’s teaching on divorce she actually wrote a very
powerful essay that she published online not too long ago if you stay on the line
I’ll get Julie I’d love to send it to you and look for anybody to read it
really it’s a really powerful essay talking about how many people within the
church have failed people who have been deserted by their spouses we tell them
oh you got to get over it always time to move on oh it’s it’s for the best and we
don’t real and we don’t take the time to acknowledge the grave injustice that was
committed against them and that their Vic they’re essentially a victim of a
very serious sin they if someone has sinned against them and betrayed them
and we’ve been brainwashed by a culture that’s so Pro divorce we always have to
side with the person who seeks divorce because what matters most is everyone
wants to be happy and so mark I certainly apologize if there were people
such as those within the church there that were not as understanding of the
wrong that you’ve suffered quite frankly however when it comes to annulments
there’s there’s a great book on the subject by Edward Peters about
annulments and in that book Peters talks about how the annulment process it’s not
like divorce court because we think like in divorce court here the plaintiffs and
we’re gonna argue about who gets what it’s very adversarial the annulment
process within a tribunal though is supposed to be collaborative it’s not
you versus me who’s going to get the most stuff at the end of this the way
the church approaches the question of annulment is we want both parties
involved so we can get to the truth was this a valid marriage yes or no and so
it’s important for both people to be involved because if one spouse is not
involved we might miss a key element that shows yes this this was a valid
marriage or no it’s not so I think that you may be feeling like why am I being
dragged into this well the reason is the church cares so much about marriage we
want to get all the facts on the table to figure out are we dealing with a
valid marriage that’s broken or an invalid marriage that’s dissolved
because of it’s invalid nature so it’s more about trying to get at the truth
and trying to Pit one side against each other do you see what I’m saying here
I do and I do and I you know I can I can appreciate that I just and and you know
what maybe it’s just me maybe it’s because that is they you know it divorce
is a very tough time and yeah you know the annulment process isn’t as tough but
but it it dragged the you know in and it was it was a long time as well well it’s
hard because yeah the annulment like when we talk about civil divorce usually
it’s about how the marriage ended and that’s the question at hand
annulments are not about how it ended it’s about how it began so you got to go
to witness statements you go back you know 10 20 30 years and your first got
married I understand it’s tough to go to go to go through all that and and I I
hope our listeners will pray for ya to relive it yeah and I hope our listeners
will say a prayer for you that now you is a you’ve been affected as being a
spouse has been deserted and all the you know all of this that’s that’s come
about but I think and that’s why I also hate the advice like oh this you know
went through now you can start you can move on it’s like you know the wounds in
the heart they’re always going to be there so I think what you’re gonna have
to do is seek out a spiritual director I always hate that people think like oh
the problem if you’re hurting from divorce just get remarried no the
problem is not it’s not find another person it’s I want to find God I want
him to make me whole to find my place in him and then if God leads me to it if
I’ve healed enough from these wounds and they’re always gonna be there it’s gonna
be a scar at least but if I’ve healed enough from that maybe God will lead me
towards towards marriage again but I find my ultimate happiness in him so
yeah I hope that’s helpful for you did you have we got maybe one or two minutes
left do you have any other thoughts sir you know I would just say you know and
this is you know hindsight was foresight we don’t see 20/20 and so I would say
this if you’re gonna get married make sure you’re aligned
first of all spiritually you know and if that means Catholic to Catholic whatever
that means that what I means to me but yeah you better be like spiritually you
better be aligned financially and I especially did I think you better
be aligned politically well you should you should share and it’s not yeah it’s
important to share as many core values as you can and that’s why marriage it’s
a discernment process it’s not when you decide to get married at your time
shouldn’t be consumed with planning a big party and in a fancy dress so thank
you for calling you stay on the line I want to still email you that article and
I might post our article on my social media as well by Leila it’s a wonderful
wonderful piece so I’ll send that to you and then yeah sorry it’s so funny you
know we spend four or five years preparing someone for the priesthood to
make sure they’re fit many candidates are screened out right from the process
now you know with marriage I worked in an office of marriage before and when we
would tell people well if there’s a nine month waiting period so you can get
married people would become apoplectic yeah they would engage in histrionics
they maybe they would be really really mad saying well hey wait a minute you’re
about to enter in to a lifelong vow to want to know that can only be dissolved
by death right so you want to take your time to think this think this through
and make sure you are prepared for the vows that you’re undertaking it’s it is
just very sad what no-fault divorce has done when people say you know thirty
years ago they said oh if you have no-fault divorce we’ll make marriage is
happier and healthier no it just cheapens what marriage is
then and then it just becomes a fancy certificate from City Hall that doesn’t
mean very much except it does mean a lot to people and especially to children
that’s why I would recommend made this way by myself and Leila Miller on
divorce and Leila’s wonderful book primal loss as well Trent Horne is our
guest this hour our number 888 three one eight seven eight a four why do you
reject Catholic morality is there some part of it you’d like to explain to us
why you’ve let go of it or maybe no were never bought into it eight at eight
three one eight seven eight eight for Catholic Answers live with Trent Horan
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live welcome back to calf dance was live
Trent horn our guests today and we’re taking your what we’re asking you a
question and taking your answers on it the question is why do you reject
Catholic morality is there something about Catholic morality that you don’t
think that comports with what’s actually good and what’s actually evil in this
world is something that bothers you about what the Church teaches is right
and is wrong and about how to live what’s right and avoid what’s wrong or
maybe do you have a more general objection to the idea of morality itself
why do you reject Catholic morality you are welcome to call eight eight eight
three one eight seven eight eight four triple eight three one eight seven eight
eight four lots of comments when we when we do this kind of show include you
mentioned the one where well you Catholics should just be quiet because
you have that sex abuse scandal which actually I mean I guess when you phrase
it that way it’s there’s times when we should just
be quiet I mean that’s perfectly okay too but in the in a world where there’s
where there’s rampant injustice I I guess the way that I wanted to phrase
this is I feel that sometimes people will the church will try to have a
holistic view of justice every it belongs to everyone and then people will
say well that’s not right because the most obvious example of course is the
abortion one where the church is looking for justice for both the mother and the
child right but you Catholics are butting your
nose in to them to the mother’s business but justices for everybody or there’s no
justice or we can’t just pick and choose who we stand up for right no we have to
be consistent in our application of our moral principles and we have to be
consistent even if we ourselves struggle with
adhering to those moral principles a hypocrite is not someone who says one
thing and does another you know that’s just being human I mean how many people
you know you say I’m gonna go to the gym every week in January and right about
now if you made it this far at congrats you’re my hero but a lot of people a
month or two ago its I not going anymore it’s and you’re not
hypocrite you just failed to live up to your standard but if you actually think
that you know exercise you know if you don’t believe in exercise and you think
it doesn’t help people but you promote it because you wrote a really famous
exercise book and you want to make money that’s a hypocrite the word hypocrite
comes from the Greek word loophole Crete ace means one who wears a mask
so the bow cliches under the mask the hypocrites someone who says one thing
but they really mean another yeah and so the church we you know we espouse
Catholic morality are we all going to live up to it no the Bible says the
righteous man stumbles seven times a day are some of us gonna fall in
spectacularly bad ways well if you look in the history of God’s people that’s a
recurring theme you know look at like a Gideon look at David you know even look
at Peter look at all the people God is you know Moses when God chooses people
sometimes they follow God’s will other times they they faceplant
the question is are we gonna get back up again and are we gonna move forward the
church is dealing with a crisis of trust and a crisis of behavior among clergy
and the question is well what are we gonna do about it yeah are you gonna are
you gonna run away say oh I don’t need this anywhere you go you’re gonna find
sin and you’ll probably find sexual sin and sexual abuse yeah I mean we’re
seeing more and more coming out yeah and that is not a way to say oh that’s not a
big deal it is a big deal with the question it’s not well if I we just get
rid of the Catholic stuff we won’t have this problem you will have this problem
everywhere the question is how do we address it and how do we address it with
the love the justice and the mercy of Christ again eight eight eight three one
eight seven eight eight four the number triple eight three one eight seven eight
eight four there is also the Impressionist or I think of it as an
impression the Impressionist reason for rejecting Catholic morality and that is
you guys always seem to be on the side of oppressing people and like you know
we’re all about more and more people being more and more free to be
themselves and and I do think this impression comes a lot from the sexual
revolution because the Catholic Church is probably the number one opponent of
the sexual revolution you mean the oppression esteem
I mean the impression is that that is it’s not really an argument it just
seems like you guys are always on the wrong side do you see that they have an
impression so they go there’s and you say Impressionists makes me think it’s a
19th century oh yeah Monet and right others like that
they have this it’s not an argument they have this fee okay they have this
feeling you guys are always on your team almost you’re always on the wrong side
of history yeah I’ve heard that too well you’re on the wrong side of history
I don’t really I don’t care I just want to be right I want to be on the I don’t
want to be on the wrong side of truth so what is that what does that mean anyways
who’s on the right side we we experience as humanity moral progress better coming
to better understanding of applying morality and in many cases where we have
deviated from morality throughout human history it’s precisely we are where we
have deviated from the revelation God has given us a natural law or in in
divine revelation of understanding how we ought to treat one another you talk
about abortion before 2,000 years ago people killed babies by just they were
born you just put him out in the woods you know they just put him out in the
woods and Christians were the ones who would go and rescue them and take care
of these abandoned infants even if it was technically illegal to do that you
guys are on the wrong side of history you know we’ve always done this in
ancient Rome and we’re always going to keep doing it right you know ancient
Rome is gone not here anymore Catholic Church is still here
the Empire’s rise and fall in the church has been here for 2,000 years through
all of them and I think people even when I mean there has been horrible think
that the sexual revolution we’re seeing the worst sexual morality we’ve ever
seen and you know you know this is the way the world is going it’s like how’s
the search going to stand out the churches stood up to sexual immorality
before it’s it stood up to you know their ancient writers who used to talk
about how people in the classical world were more dignified because they didn’t
have relations outdoors in public you know this is not a big deal at all or
just rampant pederasty and trafficking and children whereas now at least we it
happens we recognize it’s illegal we devote massive resources to stopping it
yeah you know I was I was my goodness I was flying to Massachusetts to give a
great talk there and they get the live TV on
Southwest Airlines and so I like that because there’s usually a law-and-order
Marathon going on the whole day so it’s find yourself your law and order I get
my lawnmower SVU for eight hours straight and beeping you know people are
even though there’s grave depravity at least we live in a world that’s
committed to recognize that there was a time in the past it’s like oh you know
the strong exist to oppress the weak that’s why the weaker here yeah but the
church is always stood against those those kinds of things and so I think
that I would rather be on the right side of truth because truth wins out even if
you buy into the lies of sexual revolution people are good people are
our start they are starting to see now that it’s empty in some ways yeah it’s
it’s empty it’s not fulfilling no but I mean in some ways they’re seeing it in
some ways they’re not like I when I go out and talk to young people and I’m
sure that you have the same thing it’s really as a crisis among some young
people this change in the law regarding marriage for homosexual people okay like
they are truly at a crisis point lots and lots of young people because they
just see the church being so unfair about that so that’s the battle be the
word they use why is it why shouldn’t this person get to marry if here’s the
thing they’re absolutely right they’re absolutely right if their view of
marriage they have been indoctrinated into believing it’s correct oh I see
because they’ve been in doctrine from Sesame Street on and actually in my book
made this sorry I mean I forget what I think it’s in a pirate Catholic I talk
about your own books and keep your books straight now which what which one are
you again it’s like we have a bunch of kids like oh you’re one of our kids
you’re well you’re one of my books I sight a Sesame Street skit where people
you know they talk about what marriage is and marriage is just a union of
adults so they can live together and be happy and if that is what marriage is
you’re totally right that you’re just really unfair uh-huh but the problem is
all what marriage is that’s the thing so you’re right that and that’s why it’s
not helpful when we have discussions about so-called same-sex marriage that
we’re operating from the incorrect understanding of what marriage is if
marriage is just a way to unite adults so they can find happiness and
fulfillment with one another then same-sex marriage follows no-fault
divorce follows contraception of any kind follows polygamy follows anything
follows to make you happy yeah as long as it makes you happy yeah but marriage
is not here for you to find personal fulfillment marriage exists so that the
sexual act the marital act that exists between men and women takes place within
an appropriate confines of a relation lifelong relationship that society
recognizes and almost every culture on earth has recognized that but the reason
it’s so funny we’ve seen the changes now is because 40 years ago we had no-fault
divorce but even 300 years ago you had John Milton the author of Paradise Lost
write a tract called on the doctrines and disciplines of divorce in England
saying that it should you need to change the laws on divorce because marriage
exists so that man will not be lonely so you have somebody you can chat with when
you come home from the day that was essentially his argument and so if you
don’t enjoy the person you’re with it’s a very English all right cumin I need
someone to chat with who are you gonna have tea time who am I supposed to have
Earl Grey tea with hot tea hot Earl Grey you know by myself on the holodeck
impossible but he’s wrong that’s not man no that’s not what it’s for so I mean so
that’s one of the that’s one of it let’s go to Joe in Portland Oregon watching on
YouTube live Joe why don’t you accept Catholic morality hey guys can you hear
me weekend Joe excellent so thank you for taking my call so um the reason I
reject Catholic morality is because I rejected the Church’s supposed thority
to dictate that morality I believe that it from what I know and I am an
ex-catholic myself the church bases its authority to teach definitively on the
subject of morality and faith and the belief in divine revelation both of
which I reject and because I reject the faith and supernatural revelation aspect
of it I don’t believe that the church actually has authority to teach
definitively on the subject of morality okay well there’s there’s two different
ways we could address this first the church also teaches that many aspects of
Catholic morality cohere with our human nature and that we
can know from principles of natural law thinking that if you just understand
that human beings have a particular purpose or function and we can look at
our human nature’s and understand how we ought to treat one another we can
deduce many basic principles of Catholic morality even from a natural law
perspective both scholastic like st. Thomas Aquinas and newer are two
proponents of natural law people like Robert George Patrick Lee Sherif Girgis
I mentioned earlier a lot you know John Fitness would be angry they are the big
examples of that so that’s one route we can say you know if there’s if there are
certain teachings you disagree with some of them we can actually talk about with
just principles of reason the other thing of course is well you and I can
have a discussion about why you think the Catholic Church does not have divine
authority do you think it says you said you reject divine revelation as a whole
it sounds like you’re not really religious at all is that Crennel I
wouldn’t say that I am okay all right do you do you identify as more like an
atheist or an agnostic or yeah I mean you can pick your term between the two I
guess some different people argue that they mean different things and I don’t
really have a preference as to what you would call me but yeah all righty
well I don’t know if we we can continue going down the trail here but I don’t
want you to power are we close – oh that’s gonna give you a few minutes but
I kind of join hearing the two to talk – well let’s let’s let’s go that right now
why what so it sounds like you’re making a claim here why do you think the church
does not does not have revit divine authority or that you don’t think
there’s anything supernatural out there and if your response could be while I
haven’t seen good evidence for it I mean I don’t want to god I want to jump ahead
of your answer yeah why do why do you think that the church there is no kind
of divine revelation out there well so I think that you jumping out of my answer
frankly was fairly spot-on in the sense that you know if if there if I haven’t
seen enough evidence of divine revelation and certainly of the Catholic
Church possessing divine revelation I don’t really have any reason to trust
well you know what what they’re coming from sure I thought so I thought you
might say that I heard it before certainly so what I like to ask people
is when they say that is all right well what is
what’s the best evidence that God has revealed himself in some way to humanity
what’s the best evidence you’ve seen of that like okay that’s the best claim
they’ve got but here’s why I don’t buy it
like can you could you give me an example so what do I think basically is
the best argument for God revealing himself yeah is that what you’re asking
me sure and why you’re not sold gosh I don’t I don’t know what the best uh I
guess I would argue that miracles or supernatural events sure I would you
know if something that happens it is supernatural I would argue that that
demonstrate that the supernatural does exist let me ask you a question I like
to ask this tit I like that Joe asked us to atheist sometimes so would you agree
there have been thousands maybe hundreds of thousands of miracle claims at least
yeah probably I’m not exactly sure on the number should have been a whole lot
Walter well what do you think’s more likely they’re all false or at least one
is true I honestly I don’t think there’s any way to establish a likelihood on
that sort of thing because they definitely all could be false sure and
even if one or some were true I would have literally no way of knowing which
ones were or weren’t well you’re you’re open to me I put it out there is just
just part of you know human data that it seems like lots and lots of people have
had experiences of the divine in some way shape or form and it seemed to me to
simply write off all of them say oh it’s well it’s more likely that they’re all
false that seemed like someone’s starting with a presupposition of
naturalism or or atheism but I think the more than what we could talk about is I
appreciate your openness to things like miracles so well we have do we have any
other no you’re you’re here with us you can you can stick with us for a little
bit here we could talk about a particular miracle
the reason I think that the church has divine authority to teach them morality
is because the church was founded by Jesus Christ and I think Jesus has
authority because he walked out of his own tomb and any guy who can walk out of
his own tomb I’m gonna sit down and I’m gonna listen to what he has to say and I
think there’s good evidence for that that that explains a lot of the facts
related to the death of Jesus and the beginning of the Christian Church that
Jesus’s resurrection for the day from the dead explains that very well so to
me that’s a miracle that I think makes the the biggest impact we can always
talk a little bit about that maybe when we come back can you hang on
just through one break Joe Trent Horne is our guest Joe’s on the
line from Portland Oregon we’re discussing well the question of the day
is why do you reject Catholic morality what is it about Catholic morality you
reject joe says because he doesn’t recognize the Catholic Church’s
authority to teach based in revelation we will get to that when we come back I
want to remind you though that we still have that free book for you cleansing
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attack innocent people in wartime the Catholic Church teaches
us against torture the Catholic Church teaches against divorce and remarriage
the Catholic Church teaches against abortion and euthanasia and suicide and
yeah I’m listening them for you because maybe there’s something in there that
you think no that is not right that the Catholic Church would teach that maybe
you’d like to defend a position that the Catholic Church would deny you’re
welcome to call why do you reject Catholic morality our topic today eight
eight eight three one eight seven eight eight four triple eight a three one
eight seven eight eight four I’ll just add lots and lots of Catholic moral
teaching has to do with what you can Kant should and shouldn’t do with your
money or in order to get money there are Catholic teachings against love of money
Catholic teachings against preferring your money to the welfare of your
neighbors if those bother you give us a call eight at eight three one eight
seven eight eight four eight at eight three one eight seven eight eight four
we’re talking well with Trent Horne he’s here for with us both hours but we’re
talking to Joe in Portland and Joe you still with us
yep on the line all right well good Joe I I do apologize I’m gonna shift us a
little bit because I don’t want the show to go off its course for its topic
however I do want to send you a copy of my book why we’re Catholic so just stay
on the line if in case we go to another caller our call screener will get your
information and I will send you why we’re Catholic my book has a chapter on
why we believe in the resurrection you can read that and then you can always
call back when we have a show on I do it shows – no it’s called why are you not
religious and that you’re you’re quite used to your questions and where we were
going is great a material for the why aren’t you religious show but I really
wanted to spend these two hours talking about Catholic morality so I didn’t want
to get I don’t worried if we if we go about the resurrection we will go off
the tracks where I wanted to go to the show but here’s what I thought we could
do that maybe maybe we could talk about a Catholic moral teaching you disagree
with and see if there are any principles from reason to make it seem more
reasonable to you that don’t rely on divine revelation
sure yeah we could do that all right is there yeah which is there one that
sticks out to you one that you you disagree with I guess well I guess I’ll
go with an easy target would be the Catholic opposition to same-sex
homosexual I guess activity is you would call or same-sex marriage or sure yeah
well those are two separate things so one would be the question of sexual
behavior between people of the same sex and then the question of whether
marriage should include a man and woman or two men or two women so would you
prefer the question about about the sexual act itself or what marriage is I
suppose about the sexual act itself okay sure
so what are my guess where your your thoughts sounds I would assume you don’t
think there’s anything morally problematic with that no I don’t think
there’s any way to establish that there is something more about morally
problematic with that now okay what is the standard you use to determine if a
sexual behavior is moral is is moral and not immoral or disordered so I would
probably say that you know I guess give the classic atheist answer if it’s
harmful to somebody else or if it’s harmful to society at large I would
argue that though that would make it immoral okay how do you how do you
determine if sex is if a sexual activity is harmful or not well I guess you need
to look at the the effects of that activity so you know we can we can show
a lot of examples to prove that something like rape for example is very
harmful to people and can be harmful not only to people but also to society at
large and as a result we can definitely say I think that rape is immoral at
least if we’re using you know that the welfare of society and mankind is our
basis and similarly with a consensual you know homosexual
sheva tea I do not think that there is any harm that is done that would make it
immoral okay because I guess there’s there’s two different ways one could one
could respond to that so the definition of harm that might be one that we would
talk about because I think medical studies are very clear for example that
sexual relations between two men make one far far more likely to contract
various sexual diseases and various kinds of cancers for example now reply I
think for example when you look at things not to be graphic we’re getting
there things like anal cancer much much higher
now the retort may be even if that were the case that it’s a quote-unquote risky
behavior as long as it’s consenting as long as people are consenting that might
be the the main issue here so so I guess for you what’s relation to any harm and
consent because could two people engage in a consensual activity even if it
causes pain or injury or harm and that’s okay I would say in general yes I think it’s
you know why we allow people to smoke and drink in society okay so sexual
activity is related to so it deals with consent then see for me I don’t I guess
one I would ask like well then why why is consent the big deal I would to me if
you’re not having a session about this I would take this the question back a step
in order to determine whether sexual behavior is ordered or disordered so I
might ask to ask you the question what is sex for I I don’t know that sex I
think sex can be for a variety of different things depending on the
situation I think especially if you look at the animal kingdom it’s in the same
way I mean the most basic answer would be obviously the procreation of the
species but there are other reasons that sex is used in the animal kingdom
him and I think there are other reasons that it could even be used with
human society that we’re not for so you’re saying it’s primarily for
procreation but it could be for a whole host of other things so there’s not it’s
not really there there’s not a main thing it’s it’s for so for me then I
would say that doesn’t accord with some big intuitions that we have about sex
and it’s hard to find because okay here’s here’s one we could try what is
asexual did an example of a sexual disorder besides rape like that’s a
disorder you should not engage that sexual behavior
besides rape and I would say human relations with animals would be an easy
example can you would you be able to come up with an answer to that a sexual
disorder disordered sexual behavior that’s that’s not rape I guess that’s a
good question huh I I might have to give it more thought to come up with a
definite sure well let’s unfortunately and we well let’s just give your email
we’ll send you that info we’re at the end of our hour it was great talking to
you but for me when sex is just about consent there you know all other
disorders kind of creep in and we lose what its ultimate end is for which is
for a marital end and there’s a lot more we could talk about that it was nice to
chat with you about the subject thanks Joe thanks very much for the call why do
you reject Catholic morality is our topic and we will continue with that
topic next hour so if you’re on the line please stay
and if you haven’t dialed yet eight eight eight three one eight seven eight
eight four is the number chat horn our guest next hour coming up as well eight
eight eight three one eight seven eight eight four in his new audio presentation the very
first father’s apologist Jimmy akin takes you on a tour of the earliest
Christian writings outside the New Testament from the most famous figures
and most notable works to those lesser-known but no less important this
pivotal time in the development of the early church is revealed in fascinating
detail Jimmy shows how even in the first century after the resurrection it was
necessary to defend and explain truths that are still under attack today such
as the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist and the perpetual virginity of
Mary the very first fathers is a compelling look at the dawn of the
Christian age and edifying listening for anyone who wants to understand and
defend the full truth of Catholicism order your copy of the very first
fathers today by calling one triple eight two nine one eight thousand
logging on to the shop at Catholic comm or asking for it at a good Catholic
bookstore near you Jesus asked his disciples who do you say that I am turns
out that today is back then this question has a lot of different answers
so many groups want to appropriate Jesus tweaking his identity until he looks and
sounds just like one of them but then you no longer have the Lord says
apologist Trent horn you have an imposter in his new groundbreaking book
counterfeit Christ Trent exposes eighteen phony versions of
Jesus that we encounter today helping you to recognize the fakes when you see
them explain why they’re phony and make a case for the full truth and beauty of
who Jesus is the Christ the Son of the Living God
order your copy of counterfeit Christ today by calling one triple eight two
nine one eight thousand visiting the shop at Catholic comm or asking for it
at a good Catholic bookstore near you welcome back to Kappa ganses live I am
side Kellet your hosts joined in studio by Trent Horne
the magnificent or how am I supposed to say it Trent Horne the marvelous her
some I didn’t rent has a title that he wants us all to call him and it’s Trent
Horne the train horn the ambivalent no train horn that was not the indigent the
indigent that’s why I can’t get you back for lunch the other day so because I
don’t rent on the eight eight eight three one eight seven eight eight four
is the number and we’re asking you why do you reject Catholic morality is there
a particular aspect of Catholic morals that you reject I have to say that I
have noticed that when we talk about Catholic morality the most common
objections Trent are in the area of sexual morality and these are not
necessarily the gravest areas of sexual more I mean excuse me Catholic moral
teaching I certainly the teachings on the just use of war what you can and
can’t do and when you can and can’t enter warfare those are acts I think
many people have a kind of what should I say modern view of what’s acceptable in
warfare and the church has some very serious and important and actually
humanity preserving things to say about that and and the other one that I don’t
think that we get many arguments on but maybe it’s because we every buddy gives
themselves a pass including me I’m not trying to on on the financial stuff on
the economic side of Catholic moral teaching that you know like for example
the idea that I have an obligation to other people and not just my family
because the Mafia knows that that you have an obligation your family but
beyond that I have an obligation to in society to care for the poor to care for
those in need all that I think people many people just let that go in one ear
and out the church the church is not identifiable with a particular economic
school of thought or a certain political opinion it’s easier to find
is that diverged from Catholic doctrine then completely agree with it because on
the two extremes you could have kind of the cult of Ayn Rand radical objectivism
libertarianism that says you have no moral responsibilities to other people
if you your money is yours nobody else has any kind of rights to that
whatsoever but then the other other extreme is to embrace socialism to say
well you have no right to private property at all we the state or the
community will give you what you need and then just redistribute that which is
yours to other people so I think a lot of times we don’t get questions on
economic matters because unless it’s those firm areas where someone denies
either the right to private property or the duty to care for others in between a
sort of a gray area of Prudential judgments to decide how one gives their
money how one uses it to help the poor and Catholics can disagree and can
disagree with one another on those areas involving Prudential judgment but I
think what we at Catholic Answers want to articulate are those areas of
Catholic moral teaching that are not up to Prudential judgment that are things
that have been clearly taught in some cases infallibly taught when it comes to
faith and morals of what Catholics are obliged to believe
and among those moral teachings the one that’s infallibly taught is the
wrongness of killing an innocent person yeah there’s no two ways around that
that’s not changing whether that’s a child in the womb an elderly person yeah
it was dying or someone in warfare and that’s why we see then in evangelion
vitae like Pope Saint John Paul the second like tiptoes right up to the line
of infallibility when he talks about declaring with the authority of the
church unbroken throughout history the wrongness of ending a child’s life from
the womb through direct abortion and their other and there are other issues
that come along the way now there’s gonna be even cases in morality where
you might have gray areas that arise do I have moral dilemmas your meta varies
or Prudential judgment is usually even with abortion I would say it’s an issue
of Prudential judgment whether one should use graphic images of abortion in
order to end abortion and change people’s minds I believe a certain case
can be made for their use in some contexts but not others but that’s one
where one and that would be an area of where we
can agree disagree and try to work together on this but not one but not one
where the the facts and mollah facts are just laid bare and clear but would you
say that it is clear moral teaching of the Catholic Church that I have a duty
to welcome immigrants and strangers well I depends what you mean by the term
I the the Catechism refers to nations talking about how nations have an
obligation to the best of their ability or to the extent that they are able to
welcome migrants to welcome those who are seeking a better life so the
Catechism in the section on immigration recognizes both with Catholicism it’s a
classic both and not either/or there is a right to migrate but nations also have
the right to maintain sovereign borders and to promote the common good within
their borders and subject immigration to particularly GLE restrictions and
protocols and so the church teaches that wealthier nations have an obligation to
help less well-off nations and to assist those who migrate especially those who
are seeking asylum from genocide from religious persecution yeah but on the
other hand nations have to be able to maintain the common good for the entire
populace and so they set limits on things you know like immigration but I
would point to like in the second world war before the Second World War how the
United States was among the countries that turned away Jewish immigrants from
Europe being the nazis right and there’s a way in which and I think honestly a
lot of that though was motivated by things like anti-semitism and then
what’s hard is especially when people use intrinsic evils like racism like
racism is an intrinsic evil right there right and so I think and sometimes in
the immigration debate it’s so heated immigration issues right racism is
quickly on the fore of the discussion that some people are opposed to
immigration because they want to maintain standards of racial purity
that’s a lot of people they’re the people who have that opinion now and
there are people who have had that opinion well for a lot of Catholics so
you don’t you don’t want those Catholics as Irish Catholics coming in wrecking
everything Catholics are the victims of this
racism and xenophobia for a long time and so even in 1945 there’s rampant
anti-semitism in the United States Gregory Peck I think was Gregory Peck he
was in a movie I think won Academy Award called gentlemen’s agreement oh right
about the weird redlining basically of Jewish people yeah where you couldn’t
get a mortgage you couldn’t get rearend in certain neighborhoods there
restricted if and so he posed as being Jewish for an article similar to and I
can’t remem the name of the guy who did it he wrote the book black like me yeah
yeah this is the typical journalism I’m gonna assume that other identity and
learn more about it so there but here once again you see a mixture in these
moral issues you see moral teaching is definitive
yeah moral teaching that is proposed for us to believe and then areas where where
we can apply it it’s clear in the immigration debate people should not be
treated as subhuman just because they are from a different race or ethnicity
on the other hand though we have to find a balance between allowing people to
immigrate and maintain the common good Society it’s I guess what I was trying
to get at though Trent and this is where I think people will sometimes reject
Catholic morality out of hand on this or that because often the language that the
church uses and which is often the language of the Lord himself or the
language of the Psalms or the prophets or something it becomes politicized in
this context and so then like if I say there’s a positive obligation to welcome
immigrants and strangers that’s one of the clearest things in the scriptures
then people will say well oh you’re one of those you know and then you’ve I feel
like if by that you mean I’m a Christian I hope yeah I hope I won’t ever deny
that but the there’s this I there’s a way in which right the modern
contemporary American concerns I don’t want a lot of code words in it I guess
and people don’t like to hear the code word yes Catholicism is not the one
political party it’s not one economic view it’s the truth and it’s the truth
that has been reflected through a prism of human thought and is best seen
through a variety of human ways of understanding socio-political realities
and we do our best to have the answers to articulate that speak where the
church speaks and to refrain on now each of us has our own ideas about Prudential
judgment certain I’m happy to share inappropriate context but we want to
clarify what the Church teaches on these issues so any of those Catholic moral
teachings that you either disagree with or want to challenge you are welcome to
do so why do you reject Catholic morality is our topic today eight at
eight three one eight seven eight eight four and I suppose I’m being more
provocative than usual today but sometimes patriotism is a reason why
people reject Catholic morality I do it because my support my country and so you
know and then the church says no this is not acceptable moral behavior well you
know what that’s the that’s what my country and why I feel that way
sometimes when people talk about frankly when people talk about the nuclear
bombings and in Japan one must be very there is a heresy called Americanism
it’s an actual heresy that people that the Pope has written about you wrote
about in the nineteenth century right and it’s comes from a larger view of
nationalism the idea that the grounding of your moral framework comes from your
your country seeing that you were not failing to recognize the st. Paul
teaches in Philippians 3:20 that we are citizens of the Commonwealth of heaven
that is our primary citizenship we have dual citizenship we are citizens of
states here on earth now we have real obligations to where we hold citizenship
but it’s not our soul or our primary our primary citizenship is st. Paul says in
Philippians 3:20 write is in his the Commonwealth in heaven and so we when we
decide I want to pick party before you know before church I put party and
nation before my church I I wouldn’t pick the kingdoms in the print and
putting out your trust in Princes as the psalm says but you’re put your trust in
the Lord again eight eight three one eight seven eight eight for the number
I’ve made people wait I wanted to talk about so I just wanted to make sure we
were brought into conversation fully because sometimes we can get stuck on
sexual ethics when we’re talking or sexual morality when we’re talking about
Catholic morals but any aspect of Catholic morality sticks in your craw as
my good friend Trent Horne says you are welcome to call eight eight eight three
one eight seven eight eight four triple eight three one eight seven eight eight
four you list to Catholic Answers live Catholic
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connections website is homeschool connections com which Catholic moral teaching do you
rejects why do you reject Catholic morality those are questions for the our
Trent horn our guest triple-eight 31 truth are number and as I said I have
left people waiting so we will go now to the phones Daniel why do you reject
Catholic morality thank you hear me yes cool first of all I just want to say
Trent I am a major major fan I’m gonna I’m not going to say too much
I actually am nearly Catholic myself and go through RCIA right now wonderful and
you were huge part of that I loved you’re here today with James
White House a part of it but yeah seriously thank you praise be to God um
in terms of Catholic morality I’m having a really hard travel with theology that
body regarding death and funeral rites okay because I came from the new pious
background sure and so when I look at how strict the church is when it comes
to burials and having to go through all these rites and making sure that you’re
buried oh I have a couple of problems that like with cremation it’s it’s a
whole lot better cost wise for low-income families cremation is good
for the environment sure active we’re running out of peace
well Daniel the the church allows for cremation I don’t know if you knew that
or not right so in fact it really had go ahead there was the other one where
there was controversy over the process of alkaline hydrolysis has been a new
process but even in my my parish here it’s even though it’s allowed cremation
and all these other things that they’re just seriously heavily discouraged and
looked down upon and I don’t I don’t know well the the church let me read to
you what the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith put out a
statement on burying the dead that covers cremation this was about three
years ago and this is what the CDF said it said in circumstances when cremation
is chosen because of sanitary economic or social considerations
this choice must never violate the explicitly stated or reasonably infer
herbal wishes of the deceased faithful so you know if somebody wants to be
buried does not want to be cremated we should respect their wishes the church
raises no doctrinal objections to this practice since cremation of the deceased
body does not affect his or her soul nor does it prevent God in His omnipotence
from raising up the deceased body to new life thus cremation in and of itself
objectively negates neither the Christian doctrine of the soul’s
immortality nor that of the resurrection of the body so I think Daniel well one
of the reasons that the church has been and some people have taken very negative
stances towards cremation is I think that many people have chosen it without
a sense then that idea which comes to the Catechism that it’s contrary to
Christian doctrine of the resurrection of the dead so you’ll have people who
will cremate loved ones for the purpose of saying there is no resurrection and
so they want to make sure their ashes are scattered at sea or there they’re
buried and they’re gonna grow into this tree and they’re gonna live they’re
gonna live as this tree in my backyard and that’s where the church has had
problems and so many times when it’s when it’s abused or they give you
example my own life I if you listen my podcast I enjoy going to Disneyland
taking my kids I love to hack Disneyland and there are a fair number of people
more than one who go to the Haunted Mansion at Disneyland and dump the
cremated remains of their loved ones oh man it’s it’s something I don’t know
that no it’s it is something that cast members on the ride are trained to watch
out for and urns and ashes are prohibited items in Disneyland for that
reason so yes it happens it does happen so that’s why when you’ve seen people
have had that negative action I think it’s bound up more in how often
cremation can abused can be done in a way contrary to respect for the dead and
understanding that as as Christians we’re very counter to what the world
believes and that for many people in the world you’re a theist background death
is truly the end and you only remember someone as a memory and you bury them
and and that’s it and the only place where you go to talk to them where they
are you know people 11 movies even in real I
was just watching Creed 2 on the plane the other day and Creed you know goes
is Apollo Creed his gravestone but lots of people will go to visit their loved
one at a cemetery and and that’s that makes sense their body is there but the
person the person is not till their body is there but they have an immortal soul
that has gone to a particular judgment that is either in heaven purgatory a
hell that we pray for and we pray for them knowing that they’re gonna be
reunited with their bodies so so that so I would just say not to don’t be put off
by people who have an unnecessary angst towards cremation they may just be
worried about people who abuse it though the church firmly allows it as long as
it shows respect for the body and then personally Trent speaking here I agree
with you I think cremation is a good way for many people to go about burying the
dead because I think there’s a lot of what’s we’re looking for here odious
individuals in the funeral industry not all but there’s some people who take
advantage yeah they take advantage of people in their darkest hour and it’s
like well don’t you want them to rest in comfort in this eight thousand dollar
casket I think they’ll be fine but this one has satellite radio well
they could get 130 at least they can’t get us on all of them but they’ll at
least as long as it has channel 130 so that’s where I would so for me as a
personal thing I am inclined towards things like cremation as a way to not
burden the survivors of the deceased helping them to folks I’m praying for
the dead and not worry about you know just like I hate when marriage gets tied
up with extravagant weddings I hate when funerals which are important like the
rites you spoke about they’re so important because this person there are
two incredibly important steps you’re gonna take in your Christian life the
day you die to sin and the day you die to the world the day you die to sin is
when you get baptized and the day you died the world is when your your dead
and then that’s that they’re both doors the door into the Christian life and
then the door to eternal life with God and that’s why the church takes funeral
rites so very very seriously as seriously as baptismal rites because
they’re they’re really the pivotal moments in in our life so I hope that
was helpful for you I’m very I’m very grateful that you you just come into the
church and if you want to give our call screen your
email I hope you’ll see online I’d love to send you a send you a book as a late
present for that with that with that work yeah that’d be awesome
thank you so much thanks Daniel why do you reject Catholic morality that’s our
topic today Trent Horne is our guest we go now to Stacey Stacey in South
Carolina Stacey why do you reject Catholic
morality well I don’t really reject Catholic morality but I did just here
but I strive to conform myself and something that I’m just struggling with
was news at the top of the hour when Pope Francis put the blood of Syrian and
Yemeni children on the hands of Americans and Europeans because of the
weapons manufacturers and our country so my question is what is my personal
culpability then that’s a the corporate culpability for citizens of the United
States and then see is these are private corporations who do have government
contract for other things so you know there’s a lot of in measurement so I
guess there was a Just War Theory something in there that right it’s up to
you you’re the Braniac these books I own and I love you thank you very much for
your work well thank you you’re very kind and I’m glad that you I’m glad you
called in Stacey this what you’re talking about is dealing with the
morality of arms sales and distribution and once again the Church recognizes
first the church recognizes the right to self-defense and that’s very clear you
have a right to defend yourself and that includes not just with your fists but
using appropriate means to defend yourself because if if I’ve got my fists
the other guy’s got a gun I’m not gonna last very long unless I’m unless I’m
Chuck Norris you know because when you know and then insert Chuck Norris joke
here for our Facebook feed I’m sure they’re they’ll come up with plenty
there so you have this we have the right to create means to to defend ourselves
and to defend others and to be able to participate in just Wars to protect
innocent lives but the Church recognizes that
war is war is hell and selling weapons of war is incredibly messy and dirty
it’s a fine line between creating weapons to protect people and war
profiteering Tony Stark deals with that very objection in the first Ironman this
by my Chuck Norris and Tony Stark yeah what who else you got plenty plenty side
going so the Catechism says this it says that the production and the sale of arms
affect the common good of Nations and the international community is paragraph
23 16 in the Catechism hence public authorities have the right and duty to
regulate them the short-term pursuit of private or collective interest cannot
legitimate undertakings that promote violence and conflict among nations and
compromise the International juridical order so I would say that when it comes
to morality of arms like arms that are used in conflicts like in Syria that
gets complicated politically very quickly I would say though that at an
individual level you’re very removed from geopolitics and international armed
conflicts so even if your country does something wrong if unless you directly
vote for and will for these things you’ve got very limited personal
culpability and I’m not saying that what the United States is doing I’m not I
don’t want to comment on what Pope Francis says I want to look at the exact
context of the quote and what he said to be able to reflect upon it but I will
say there are clear cases where you have organizations that are criminal they’re
terrorists or they’re involved in unjust conflicts and it would be wrong to
knowingly sell weapons to them to facilitate their immoral activities and
so weapons manufacturers I believe can be held responsible for that and nations
can be held responsible for financing and supporting especially in terrorist
organizations so there’s or you can’t just say well you know if they pull the
trigger it doesn’t matter if you know someone is going to definitively
definitely use a weapon for evil and you provide it with them there’s cooperation
of evil there and so you can be responsible for that based on your your
intent and how much you know of what’s what’s happening here so I guess that’s
kind of the the flyover to look at it but is is that helpful yes it is thank
you and I think that might be that type of a question or thought
process from a lay person like me why you don’t get questions on the morality
of that because whether we are we’re not a lot of times we feel very removed and
powerless against these geopolitical issue and so my response is to pray with
I’ve got 12 kids we’ve raised a family four children of war and peace so that’s
where I would feel like if I didn’t pray that would be a sin of omission and it’s
the only thing I can do as a teeny little home if you need any any mother
of 12 does not the hero of the story adjectives puny can never be applied to
anyone who has had a dozen children yeah it doesn’t matter what the story is if
you’re the mother 12 you’re the hero of that story eight at eight three one
eight seven eight eight four our number triple eight three one eight seven eight
eight four which Catholic moral teaching do you reject or why do you reject
Catholic morality at all you’re welcome to call eight eight eight three one
eight seven eight eight four Jacqueline I don’t have a location on Jacqueline
but Jacqueline why do you reject Catholic moral teaching I’m not sure
that it applies as that okay I really what sticks in my craw is the report of
non transparency between bishops priests and bishops and Cardinals in this crisis
that there won’t tell the truth and they’re getting away with it even up in
even the Holy Father seems to it these conferences doesn’t seem they hit the
nail on the head about getting this crisis cleaned up you know and in this
soup manner well Jacqueline let me ask you a question oh well to stay on the
line and I will ask you a question when we return sorry Jacqueline I’m sure
cock and I didn’t do it right so I hang on a second and we will get trench
response again triple 831 truth power number topic why do you reject Catholic
morality right back with more that after this this is Bishop James Conley the Diocese
of Lincoln keep it right here on Catholic Answers live Jesus asked his
disciples who do you say that I am turns out that today is back then this
question has a lot of different answers so many groups want to appropriate Jesus
tweaking his identity until he looks and sounds just like one of them but then
you no longer have the Lord says apologist Trent horn you have an
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Trent exposes a teen phony versions of Jesus that we encounter today helping
you to recognize the fakes when you see them explain why they’re phony and make
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Living God order your copy of counterfeit Christ
today by calling one triple eight two nine one eight thousand visiting the
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love and beauty as a little girl Donny ting Goldstein knew she wanted
those things that in them somehow she would find God over the years as a rock
journalist she moved among some of popular music’s best known artists
straining to capture that transcendent love and beauty in every note in lyric
in Sunday will never be the same Don recounts her spiritual journey in
beautifully wrought detail mixing powerful accounts of trauma healing and
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ultimately lays before the reader a lived testimony to the transforming
grace of Christ order your copy of Sunday will never be the same by calling
one triple eight two nine one eight thousand visiting the shop at Catholic
comm or asking for it at a good Catholic bookstore near you there’s a fight for your child’s soul on
college campuses we’re discussing the environment your children are exposed to
on tomorrow’s take two with Jerry and Debbie now let’s get back to more of
Catholic Answers live chat horn our yes this hour on Catholic
Answers live Trent is the podcaster behind a podcast called Council of Trent
but at cou ncil know cou n SEL a little bit of council SEL is when you get
people advice you are the air right you are Trent from the Council of Trent yes
and but you can find it at Trent hoard podcast calm and we’re going back to
Jacqueline Ida head and forget but in a minute I want to ask you if there’s
anything interesting over there at Trent horde podcast calm like what’s new you
know oh sure so should we do that first dish we go to Jacqueline first let’s go
back she’s in waiting patiently look she has no right I don’t know have you been
waiting patiently or have you been impatient Jacqueline no I’m here and
thank you for taking my call did I make myself clear
yeah Jacqueline you’re concerned about the transparency and action or some
might say inaction of priests bishops and the Pope on the sexual abuse crisis
did I summarize that well well let me ask you let me ask you a question what
what do you think would be the one thing the Pope and the bishops would do that
would make you feel better about this what’s the one thing they could do if
they would be honest it seems to me that since then not to admit what they have
done and what it is doing is is driving so many people away from the church for
the time when it’s critical that they have answers well I think that the the
Pope and the bishops and many many priests have admitted that terrible
crimes have taken place both with abuse and indifference and actively covering
it up so I think they happen when it comes to transparency I know many
diocese who have now publicly listed priests that have been credibly accused
of sexual abuse on their website they have publicly made that clear to
individuals I know people who serve on ley review boards for died
sieze noting the the extreme care they’re taking in any accusation and
make sure that the individuals involved are not allowed to be anywhere near
individuals that they could harm and to review accusations swiftly and to make
sure that all the facts are gathered and that appropriate you know law
enforcement is involved so I think that this is this is a woman we’re gonna keep
healing always healing from but it’s not a problem that we’ll be able to solve
overnight but it’s one that I do have a lot of faith and people moving forward
now when it comes to being honest it was funny I was reading in the the questions
on the the chat here about priests bishops and Pope’s you know not you know
the Pope not just being forthright about this but I have heard some especially
some priests and bishops there forthrightness is blow me away probably
one of my favorites by far if our listeners want to go back and look this
up look up my friend father John link it he’s the rector at Saint Simon and Jude
Cathedral in Phoenix Arizona father look at father lenka tele and Kei
T father Lang ckets homily sexual abuse the ones I’m thinking of our August 19
2018 and September 2nd 2018 father Lincoln homily abuse I cried cried that
it was just so raw honest and helpful and we need more priests and bishops to
just be clear and there are there are we just please have to be willing to listen
to maybe Jacqueline could give us her email address and we’ll send her a link
yeah Oh Jacqueline please send your give your email or any kind of correspondence
to our call screener and we will I will send you that link but thank you for
calling I can I say something well Jacqueline still here just want to ask
you a quick question and the question is pretty for you cuz I have to say I’m a
little barely hear you oh I feel I’m a little bit more on Jacqueline side on
this than the not and don’t you still feel that like the you know they say
like glance a boil or something like that the the wound is not drained
there’s still stuff that there’s no we do need more honesty we do need more
bishops to stand up and be honest yeah I’m not this is not a time to have
congratulatory Pat’s on the back yes this is I think there are two errors
here whenever I’m it’s all about them the
golden mean as Aristotle would say the middle the the solid middle ground route
and the two extremes of course would be to pretend like there is no problem yeah
or to to completely minimize it and dismiss it that’s absurd
and equally absurd is to say that this problem justifies abandoning the church
entirely fair enough and and so those are the it’s that is Odysseus still and
carbon it’s a rock and a hard place you want to try to drive the ship
through and that’s what I’m taking here is to to acknowledge things that are
that are not it’s always hard also we don’t want to speak about the members of
Majesty in the bishops or even like the clergy bishops and priests and the Pope
the clergy and some kind of monolith right these are human beings yeah these
are human beings and to varying degrees they’re faithful to Christ we have to
pray for every single one of them to be faithful now every single one of them to
be faithful or renew their fidelity to Christ but it’s it’s just not fair to me
to treat it as a monolith little bit okay bishops the priests like what do
you mean I know priest said you’re indifferent and ER and I’m thinking that
you’re so callous and on your father Lincoln like this is beautiful yeah
there are bishops I know who’ve written letters and are saying nope we’re doing
an a review board right now this is not happening in my diocese and others they
give you a bunch of jibber-jabber mr. t hey wait a sec I just had Jacqueline
thank you very much I appreciate this so we have to acknowledge those who are
excelling and those who need to accelerate in a different direction
right Tony Stark Odysseus Chuck Norris and mr. t all get made you listen to
free for all Friday at the Council of Trent podcast at render and podcast calm
you’ll see that the mind of Trent horn is like a little pinball machine a
trivia you never know what it will light up let’s go to Neil Neil I don’t have a
location for you either but what what part of a Catholic morality do you
reject meal well I told the call Spears that I don’t necessarily disagree with
Catholic morality I’m actually a reformed Protestant so there are a lot
of things that I disagree with but I don’t take I have a lot of respect for
the Catholic Church this actually their view on the sanctity of
life and appreciate everything that they’ve done thank you for showing up
promote that question what the issue I had and I appreciate your your program I
listened to it quite often sure the question I had is that your
guest has made a statement about the bombing in Japan and I and I know that
was a horrible thing and but the way I understand it it would have been much
worse for the United States that if we had had to invade Japan with our loss
would have been terrible so I guess I disagree with that you okay fair enough
and that was that was me aside not Trent that said that but now now I will turn
to Trent to make him defend me sure and the dropping the atomic bomb on
Hiroshima I believe would still fall within a category of Prudential judgment
among cat there are Catholics who disagree about the morality of that
particular act of war I’m not familiar with the Magisterial document that says
no this was an unjust act of war anymore that I’m familiar with one that is
critical of the firebombing of Dresden or The Rape of Nanking or the My Lai
massacre I’m not I’m familiar more with Church documents that espouse the
principles yeah and I believe now I personally do believe that the
principles of just war about not using arms that produce greater evils and what
you’re trying to stop or not directly targeting innocent civilians and war
would apply and the bombing of Hiroshima would be wrong it would be immoral so
Neal I’m very sympathetic to the argument though because you’re saying
look it’s war it’s messy here’s your choices we are the drop this
bomb and thousands of people die or we invade the may not the home island of
Japan and maybe millions of people will die
but I’m very concerned about that kind of thinking because that’s
consequentialism that’s a mode of moral thinking that’s alien to the gospel that
says let’s just pick whatever will minimize harm in the world
but then you’ve got a problem then you could do almost any evil thing as long
as you’ve got a good end in sight and Saint Saint Paul is very clear not to do
do not do evil to accomplish good so Neil for you to see where I’m coming
from here is there any kind of act in war that you would agree is wrong that
we should never do well absolutely I mean yes you know killing of civilians
and you know there’s the Geneva Convention I mean yeah absolutely there
are things that we have that I would have to say it was wrong I mean right
but I would still say for me that dropping a nuclear weapon onto a
populated city to me seems very it just doesn’t seem any different than
launching a cruise missile at a hospital maybe maybe you’re gonna get a few
soldiers in the hospital but you’re you’re directly targeting a civilian
population here to achieve a certain end it because you could use the atomic
bombs they could have been detonated on you know on Japanese camps or on ships
around at sea I think there’s other things that could have could have been
done I mean obviously that we only had three bombs or there one was already
used and there were there were two left but but I really do think that when we
take a step back and we asked what’s right and wrong in war and if we agree
directly targeting innocent civilians is wrong nuclear weapons are so in most
cases nuclear weapons are when they’re used are so indiscriminate that they
affect innocent civilians in a way that I think would be would be unjust but I
hope this helpful for you and if you go to our website at Catholic comm you can
check out just look up her over there I think we have a whole essay I think Kris
check might have written that essay the bombing of Hiroshima at Catholic comm so
you might want to go in and check that out but Chris knows artillery I mean he
was very killer officer in the Marines but I will say
that does it doesn’t follow then once again it’s all about extremes it doesn’t
follow from that that the church does not say that nuclear weapons are
intrinsically evil it does have a high amount of trepidation about them they’re
very powerful but I can’t say that it’s a hundred percent I see yeah you could
never use them in an armed conflict because I could see for example you
might use a small nuclear warhead to penetrate a hardened underground bunker
where enemy headquarters is for example or you could use a nuclear warhead to
stop a fleet of naval ships at sea where there’s not a civilian population but
but as I said in where but the problem with nuclear fallout with radioactive
you know the blast itself in populated areas it seems to me that it
indiscriminately targets civilians and that would be wrong I could but I will
not ask you Neil for that thanks very much for the call I hope that was
helpful in your considerations of the matter you know what a trend I said I
was going to ask you about training or podcast so let me do that before we go
to the break what is happening that’s new and interesting this week at Trent
Horne podcast calm oh sure what’s the happ’s
tell me what what’s the haps well what’s tell me what to happen and Jesus Christ
Superstar I’ve got to be on my eighth or ninth reference right now so we’ve got
some great episodes on trend room podcast right now I did an episode on
logic how to think through your faith and avoid the traps that lead to errors
and lies we have another episode this week where I invited two of my
colleagues Murray Dixon our assistant producer and Christine Venditti major
gifts officer to discuss a letter to Notre Dame University to the newspaper
that went viral was a Catholic mom worried about leggings and so the three
of us sat down and talked about how you discuss modesty in an age where it’s a
landmine of an issue and I talked about it in my book with Leila Miller three
chapters or the hardest chapters we wrote yeah so I’ve got it would Laila
Miller by the way who got me to stop wearing leggings her argument was so
that that is a work of mercy for all of us sigh so okay that that will be that
will be considered in her future beatification I’m sure yeah
so and then other episodes that critiqued a New York Times article
trying to say that the exist God is a logical contradiction I Eve invited he’s
a local professor in Sandy aigo who wrote this New York Times
article about how God sent him an email to come on my podcast he lives here but
yeah I didn’t hear back so I’m always looking for new people to come on the
show to discuss things and on Fridays we have fun the most recent Friday episode
we’re five places in the world that fascinate me that you’ve probably never
heard of including an island covered in thousands of snakes Wow five okay that’s
a Friday at Friday’s our fun over there at the and that’s all at trend weren’t
podcast calm if you’re a premium subscriber you could access the
Catechism study series lots of other bonus episodes it’s a fun place to be
how did Davin get covered in snake you have to listen to the episode now that’s
free that’s free for all Friday just just go to Trenor and podcast com
subscriber or not and you can you can find out about that and probably one of
the world’s most inhabited sorry most remote inhabited Islands I can’t tell
you which you also go the episode to find out it’s got to be one of the
Hawaiian Islands no they’re quite remote don’t whine I’ll give you a hint you’re
in the wrong ocean no really Pacific Ocean so big though alright well we’ll
take a break and we’ll come back to more of your calls about which Catholic moral
teaching you reject if there’s a Catholic moral teaching that you reject
you’re welcome to call eight eight eight three one eight seven eight eight four
or if you’d like to challenge us on the whole idea of Catholic morality eight at
eight three one eight seven eight eight four this is dr. Scott Hahn and stay
tuned for more Catholic Answers live are you a coffee drinker if so you can now
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coffee dot-com st. john paul ii stated that for the
disciple of christ evangelization is a duty an obligation of love and the
Catechism of the Catholic Church states that evangelization is necessary for
salvation so we know we’re called but how do we do it st. Paul Street
evangelization can help to learn more contact us at Street evangelization comm
that’s Street evangelization com Morning Glory it’s Catholic from coast to coast
instead of seeing as a participation in Christ’s passion and union with his
redeeming sacrifice of the Cross we see it as all we have to avoid pain we have
to avoid suffering people need to think that it’s not about avoiding suffering
that we think is meaningless is about finding meaning in the suffering that’s
unavoidable morning glory talking about everything important to today’s Catholic
tomorrow morning 7:00 Eastern on EWTN radio while the max calf camps is live which
Catholic moral teach reject I wish we had talked about
modesty a little earlier Trent horn our guest this hour no because I love the
calls on model yes right it is a teaching of the Catholic Church that you
should dress modestly now that is correct
okay yes that drive people some people crazy they should the idea that you
should dress well if it was if anyone doesn’t believe that you ought to be
modest yeah I would enjoy talking with them but most people agree with that
what’s funny once again when the different kinds of issues we debate
usually you know there’s the clear principles right and wrong and then
there’s the application of them with the debate about modesty it gets really
messy about the application what it isn’t isn’t modest it’s basically part
of it I have you know there’s some general guidelines very very general
general guidelines one can issue but part of it is also you kind of have to
borrow from justice Potter Stewart I know it when I see it in modesty when
something is immodest versus modest you have cultural considerations to be
factored in but there are they’re just lines that are just clear as day based
on context things like that but like women showing their ankles there was a
context when that was and that was not appropriate yes
oh but times have changed alright have changed a tad let’s go to Tom and Baton
Rouge Louisiana Tom which Catholic moral teaching do you reject hey guys first of
all I love your show so thank you but well I don’t know if it’s Catholic nor
teaching I thought I heard one of you say that the bombing of Hiroshima and
Nagasaki were immoral oh that was me that was it not true that you did you
did correctly that is that was me I was okay
probably more definitive than Trent would be on that yeah I would say Tom
that I leaned towards that position but I’m not aware of a magisterial document
no I based it on personal based on the principle that you in even in warfare
you cannot directly attack innocent civilians and so I take those attacks to
be direct attacks on innocent civilians I mean which I think is supported by the
fact that almost everyone killed in fact a civilian and we’re talking
about numbers may be as high as 230,000 people so I just am applying that
principle and saying that so you would you you would you would then consider
all pretty much all of the strategic all the bombing really done by the American
and Allied forces in World War two to have been immoral well and then you used
the word strategic because what happened tore in the last two years of the war
was the indiscriminate bombing of civilians and I would say yes would so
when we’re talking about things like bombing London or bombing Dresden or
then now those are acts specifically directed against civilians civilians and
yes those are immoral so okay and and you don’t weigh that against the greater
good of saving American lives in you know or the Allied lights I do not know
well and Tom I don’t know if you heard we when we discussed with the other
caller here I think that we have to look at at larger principles here and that
even after World War two you had a lot of discussion well they really actually
this really took place after rule it was after World War one when you had laws of
war really implemented because war is a very nasty thing and we have to say all
right are there limits to how we should properly engage one another in war even
if the goal is to reduce casualties so for example do you think that armies
should be prohibited from using chemical warfare in battle that causes
excruciating deaths like like mustard gas for example even if the goal is to
save the lives of your own soldiers well I don’t think those are apples and
oranges because the number of lives of your own soldiers that were saved you
are actually also saving massive amounts of lives of the combatant enemy at the
same time right but did you city could if you could say that you could use
chemical warfare and and and and so let me let me also Kavya
something about here’s that I’m I was a professional soldier so I trained and
saw the horrors of some of this stuff so those are not apples and apples those
are very distinct different things the vagaries of chemical warfare the
difficulty of controlling the weapon and what happens with it are very different
than the the precise use and it precise is relative of something like a nuclear
weapon which cost hundreds of thousands of lives yes but actually fewer lives
than were lost in the bombings of Tokyo but ended the war saved millions of
American lives and probably millions of Japanese lives also
so overall although it was you know it was a worst-case scenario well you’ll
tell him up saving millions of life but this goes back to the main point I was
raising which is as Catholics do we embrace consequentialist thinking which
is it’s okay to do something as long as it produces good consequences so the
problem becomes there it sounds like your position would entail it’s okay to
commit a war crime as long as it reduces the most amount of deaths in a war
that’s what your position sounds like well you know the church allows for
example abortion or the result of an abortion if it you know the cost it’s
the life of the mother you know if you’re treating the mother for example
and she died and it’s gone that’s gonna directly cause the abortion well then
you know the chemotherapy speaking of a pose where you’re doing this thing
doesn’t know I would I would disagree let me jump in here that that is
actually an apples to oranges comparison the church does not sanction the direct
killing of anyone in order to save the life of another person in the case of
removing an ectopic pregnancy or a cancerous uterus what you have here is
you have a licit medical action that results in the unintended death of the
child but can’t just directly kill one person even
if it will save the most amount of lives for example and we’re almost at the end
of the show and I finally did get to do this oh no here we go if I was in a
lifeboat at sea with SCI kelan and it’s sinking yeah alright and it can only
support both of us I regularly support one of us well unless I push you
overboard the options are I kill SCI and push him overboard and then and then he
and then then at least one person lives me or I don’t do that and then we both
end up drowning a lot of people would say well go ahead and kill him because
at least the most amount of lives would be saved but that is not what we believe
as as Christians or as moral people that we don’t directly kill one person we
don’t directly kill innocent people even to save other lives because all lives
are intrinsically valuable we have to understand that at the final count of
things we can’t look just at it lives gained and lost in this life we can in
some situations for sure but then we neglect about souls that are gained and
lost in this life and that to it to commit mortal sin and to forfeit a
person’s soul results in eternal misery for that person that isn’t worth
whatever kind of temporal goods we might achieve in this life I think that’s
another thing in these discussions about war we only sometimes we have a myopic
focus we just look at this life and the goods we achieve and if that’s the case
if it’s only about this life then all kinds of Evil’s get rationalized when
it’s all about this life versus the eternal lives that we have and the
intrinsic value all human lives have created the image of likeness of God so
oh that’s helpful for you and I’m glad that that you called in Thank You Tom
thanks very very much let’s see if we can get Kathy in real quick Kathy what
Catholic social teaching to you or excuse me moral teaching do you reject
hi how are you thank you for taking my call short of time Kathy by the way I
okay I’m a veteran and I believe no war I hate true Richards never spoken go
right ahead okay the times they offer it the top pay they
think it hard to go and I why can’t I just confess my sins alright okay good
Trent yeah I think what I would say here is we should ask ourselves first I agree
with you I hate when bureaucracy keeps us from the sacraments but we should ask
did Jesus give us the sacraments just as Jesus didn’t want us to baptize
ourselves he gave us a minister of the sacrament
he gave us ministers of the sacrament of confession to stand in place of him just
like in John 20:23 he told the Apostles that they can
forgive sins stay on the line sorry got cut off but
I’ll send you my book why we’re Catholic as a whole chapter on why we confess our
sins thanks Cathy thanks very much Trent Horne
thank you for two fine hours again you did it always fun with you son and I
know you got a new book coming out counterfeit Christ we’ve got to talk
about that on the air sometime but for the in the meantime just visit Trent at
Trent Horne podcast com find out all about the Council of Trent and the good
work Trent does there we’ll see you tomorrow for two hours of
open forum God willing right here on Cathy Ganges live

7 thoughts on “Trent Horn: Why Do You Reject Catholic Morality? – Catholic Answers Live – 04/08/19

  1. 56pjr Post author

    Roman Catholicism is not, never has been, nor ever will be a Christian denomination! The official dogmas of this religious system deny the fundamental doctrines of historic Christianity. These are; Salvation is by Grace alone, through Faith alone, in Jesus Christ alone, as described in the Bible alone, to the Glory of God alone.

    The Bible is absolutely clear about the Gospel. God is Holy, man is born in sin. No amount of “good works”, including giving to the poor, attending church services, praying to “saints”, praying to Mary, rosary beads, candles, confession, so called “priests”, infant baptism, doing the sacraments, and numerous other rituals demanded by the Roman authorities will satisfy the wrath of God against sinners. This false “church” had the arrogance to remove the 2nd Commandment in order to justify their pagan statue worship.

    The Roman Catholic Church in the Catholic Catechism teaches that we can merit grace necessary for salvation and that eternal life is attained by faith, baptism, and keeping the commandments, which this demonic religion had the audacity to alter by eliminating the 2nd Commandment of “no graven images”. They also arrogantly added 7 to 11 books at the council of Trent in the 1,500’s which were NEVER considered to be Scripture and often contradict the True Word of God.

    1. CCC 2010, "…Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life."

    2. CCC 2027, "Moved by the Holy Spirit, we can merit for ourselves and for others all the graces needed to attain eternal life, as well as necessary temporal goods."

    3. CCC 2068, "The Council of Trent teaches that the Ten Commandments are obligatory for Christians and that the justified man is still bound to keep them;28 the Second Vatican Council confirms: "The bishops, successors of the apostles, receive from the Lord . . . the mission of teaching all peoples, and of preaching the Gospel to every creature, so that all men may attain salvation through faith, Baptism and the observance of the Commandments."

    4. Paragraph 85 says "The task of giving an authentic interpretation of the Word of God, whether in its written form or in the form of Tradition, has been entrusted to the living teaching office of the Church alone. Its authority in this matter is exercised in the name of Jesus Christ."47 This means that the task of interpretation has been entrusted to the bishops in communion with the successor of Peter, the Bishop of Rome.

    This obviously faulty teaching in the CCC is hugely problematic since it contradicts Scripture.

    1. Rom. 3:28-30, "For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one."

    2. Rom. 4:3, "For what does the Scripture say? "And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness."

    3. Rom. 4:5, "But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness,"

    4. Rom. 5:1, "therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ."

    5. Rom. 11:6, "But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace."

    6. Gal. 2:16, "nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified."

    Why is the RCC teaching that you attain salvation through observing the commandments when the Bible says we are saved apart from the works of the Law (Rom. 3:28-30; 4:5; Gal. 2:16)?

    1. Why would the Roman Catholic Church teach that you merit for yourself the grace needed for eternal life when that clearly contradicts Rom 11:6?

    There is a great deal wrong with what the RCC teaches. We must look to God's word and not to what the RCC says we must do to be saved. Our salvation is not merited by our keeping the commandments! The Roman Catholic Church needs to repent.

    Salvation is achieved by the substitutionary atonement of Jesus Christ, God in human flesh, who died on the cross and rose again to pay the sin debt for all who were chosen from before time to be His people. It is faith in Jesus alone which saves you.

    In addition, the Roman Catholic religions is responsible for murdering untold millions of true bible believers who refused to agree with it's heretical beliefs and practices.

    By God’s Grace I was “born again” after 40 years as a devout follower of the pope and all Rome’s teachings. I blindly trusted all the “priests”, nuns, “bishops” and family members without question.

    Then I read the Bible. I urge all Roman Catholics to read the Bible and to trust the Bible alone to be the source of Truth. I encourage you to question everything you have been taught regarding the false religious system of Roman Catholicism.

    Jesus promised, “you will know the Truth and the Truth will set you free” (John 8:32)

  2. Cole Breda Post author

    Trent horn should phone into the Atheist Experience show

  3. Cathy Latorre Post author

    What planet do you live on are you delusional,,,,
    What part of the institution of the priest doing malaise station and all the other deplorable things can you even bring up the issue of your morals are you crazy absolutely crazy,,,,,
    I will say I have never ever met a good Catholic ever not one

    You do absolutely everything the word of God says do not do that's what you people do with the bow on it!!!!

  4. Cathy Latorre Post author

    Greatest song and I'm gonna call it the Catholic pukes,,,,
    The house of the sodomites what are you bunch of ,,,, you Batcha you Batcha it's tarnished watches all burn you agree with something it's the same as doing it,,,,

  5. Jesse Velasquez Post author

    Although some reject Catholism and criticize it, I find the Church to be beautiful and full of treasures. Even though I have enjoyed watching and hearing Joel Osteen and Joyce Meyers, I only find Jesus our Lord in the Catholic church. The beauty of the Eucharist is beyond words. The love, peace, comfort, joy, strength that I receive in the Eucharist can be found no where else. Praise be Jesus for his church and the Eucharist. God is big and wonderful. It is beyond me why everybody isn't Catholic. My heart jumps with joy everytime I go to receive the Eucharist. You guys do a wonderful job. Keep it up….

  6. ruth musante Post author

    I was married in. German Lutheran Church then I became a catholic and it was annulled but through the grace of God we were remarried 21 years later and have been happy for 28 years


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