Education Policy Workshop on Inequality in Education

By | August 31, 2019


– [Kalena] Hi there, howdy! (laughs) – [Audience Members] Howdy! – I like that, all right. So I would like to welcome
you to our annual spring Education Policy Workshop
at The Bush School This event is being sponsored
by the Mosbacher Institute. So, our ed policy series was
launched a couple of years ago. And the purpose for this series is to bring in prominent
scholars who are working on timely education and
policy-relevant topics. So today we’re absolutely thrilled to bring to you Dr. Sue Dynarski. Sue is a professor of
public policy, education, and economics at the
University of Michigan where she holds multiple appointments at the Ford School of Public Policy, the School of Education, and
the Department of Economics and also Institute for Social Research. Sue also serves as co-director of Education Policy Initiative and the Michigan Education Data Center. Sue’s research focuses on
inequality in education. She has done really interesting work on the effectiveness of charter schools, the optimal design of financial aid, and the effect of high school reforms. So without further ado, please
help me welcome to the stage Sue Dynarski from the
University of Michigan. (audience applauding) – I wanted to have two waters.
– Two waters, very good. – Thanks. All right, thank you very
much for having me here. So I just need this mic, I think, so this one can go over here, all right. All right, I am going to first do some depressing description, so talking about trends in inequality and educational attainment
and achievement, and they’re depressing. And then I will show you some promising, evidence on some promising programs that are effective in reducing
inequality in education. So don’t leave halfway,
’cause the uplifting part comes at the end, OK. So first let me show
you, I’m a data person, so let me start out my
showing you some data so you’ll get the lay of the land and understand the
context we’re working in. So first of all, this is
some pretty good news. So what we have here are data on the share of people who get a BA and their birth cohort, so
people born back in the teens of the last century, only about 6%. And I have a broken hand so I
get combat pay for this right. (audience laughing) 6% earned a BA for the cohorts
born back in the teens. It’s now 27%, 28%, it’s
gone up to about 30% now. So first thing to know is,
if you hear people say, everyone gets a BA and
the market is saturated and there’s no payoff to
going to college anymore ’cause there’s a bubble
’cause everyone gets a BA. 30% of people get a BA at this point. They cluster together in
highly educated cities and neighborhoods, so it
feels like everybody’s got a BA because around
you that’s the case. So places like College
Station and Austin and Dallas and Ann Arbor, very high education levels, but nationwide about 30% of people. And that 30% is of entire birth cohorts. And that’s a function of, do
they graduate high school? Gotta do that first, right? So that’s where we are with BA completion. The red line above that is
the share of that birth cohort that goes to college, right. So that’s gone up from 16% up
to about 66% of young people have any college experience. So you know, note that these
are different from each other. Not everybody who goes
to college gets a BA. So in fact, about half of
those who go to college end up with a BA, and maybe
another, say, 4% or so 5% get an AA, a two-year degree, but about 1/2 of people who start college never actually finish with a degree. So that’s, the completion margin in an increasingly important one as we see this very stark
growth in college attendance, right, from 16% to 66% of
people get any college. And we’ve gone from 6% to
about 30% on BA completion. There’s interesting
differences in this by gender. So this is, again this
now college attendance. So do you have any college, did you get any college credits at all? And for women it’s been
a steady march upward. Men it’s been, and women
passed men on attendance for the cohorts born
around the ’60s or so. So 71% of women, 61% of men
have any college experience. This is young people,
so we’re sort of looking at what the future is going to be because we’re looking
at people in their 20s and then we go forward. If we look at BA completion,
it’s even starker to see that basically all of the
growth for a number of decades, there’s been sort of stalled progress for men in BA completion. And all of the growth in BAs
in the U.S. at this point is coming from women. So about 1/3 of women end up with a BA and about a quarter of
the men end up with a BA. So this is what is gonna be
the focus of most of my talk is differences by income. So differences by socioeconomic status. This is what I study, what I focus on is income inequality, racial inequality in who gets to college,
who completes college. And I study different interventions along the educational pipeline that try to ameliorate that inequality. So first I’m gonna describe it and then describe some
evidence on what shrinks it. So what is this? This is, we are now looking at information on whether people go to college, so where they touch college. We’ve got it for two
different birth cohorts. This birth cohort born in
the late ’70s, early ’80s. This birth cohort born in the early ’60s. We’ve got it arranged by
the income of the family in which they grew up, so
we’re measuring their income when they were young people,
when they were 12, 14 or so. And we’re splitting it up by,
were they in the lowest 25% of the family income distribution, top 25% of the family income
distribution, and in the middle so we can look at for this
older cohort, the poorest kids, 19% of them went to college
is how we read this. For the richest kids, 58%
of them went to college. So the steepness of this thing is some measure of the income inequality in college attendance for that cohort. You can see a big shift,
the whole line shifts upward because there was a big bump
up in college attendance across these two cohorts. So now for the poorest kids,
29% are going to college, and the richest kids, 80%. And it’s kind of a, it doesn’t look like there’s much of
a steepening going on. It’s just kind of a big shift upwards depending on how you calculate it. There’s more inequality
or it’s about the same. As context and why I’m
interested in this topic, I’m in here, I’m actually born in 1965, so I’m sort of at the end of this group, but my dad was a high school dropout. My mom had a few college credits, grew up in a working class town where relatively few
people went to college. And for me, and somehow
I ended up at Harvard for undergraduate and a whole
bunch of things happened in my life that changed, so I really think that education has a
transformative potential, as an engine of mobility, and
so that’s why I focus on it. That’s why it resonates with me. Now this is, do people complete a BA? So in the birth cohort
what proportion of them end up with a BA? Now the numbers are
looking quite a bit worse. So this, again, is my
group, just 5% of my peers ended up with a bachelor’s degree. And that has, for the next
cohort, rocketed up to 9%. This is not enormous growth, right, so there’s not a lot going
on here for low-income kids in terms of BA growth. And again, if people tell
you everyone’s getting a BA, about nine or 10% of low-income
kids end up with a BA. 54% in the current cohorts
or the younger cohorts here, 54% are ending up with a BA. So six times as likely to end up with a BA if you’re from the top of
the income distribution than from the bottom. This looks like it’s
steepened a bit, right? So this is not just a shift upwards now. This is kind of a rotation. Looking at this, you could conclude that the relationship between
income and getting a BA has grown stronger, that it’s
a tighter relationship now than it used to be, why do we care? Well, for one thing, if you
look at earnings in the U.S., and income, which have been
growing increasingly unequal over the past 40 years
with some sputtering, but that’s been the big trend,
a big dividing line is a BA. So it’s the BAs that have
pulled away from everybody else. If you just have some college,
your earnings, your wealth, other stuff tends to look more
like a high school graduate. It’s those who get a BA, and in fact, those who get a master’s degree who have been pulling away from the rest of the income distribution,
so there is strong evidence that the impact of getting a BA on somebody’s lifetime wellbeing, and that’s not just
earnings, but also longevity, do you have a pension, I mean,
any measure you can think of people with a BA are better
off than those without. All right, so where is
this gap coming from? So it could be about academic preparation, that these kids are not
getting sufficient preparation in high school and in elementary school to get them into college
and through college. It could be costs, financial
aid could make a difference. It could be distance, the
colleges aren’t close enough to people’s homes if
they live in rural areas. So there’s a whole bunch of explanations that researchers have worked through trying to explain what’s going on here, and I’m going to go through
a few of those explanations. So first, the most obvious
one is academic preparation. And so this is eighth grade test scores, and it’s from eighth graders in 2006. And it is arranged by the
income of their parents from $5,000 up to over $200,000. And these little numbers
here indicate the percentile of the distribution, so
this is the lowest 10% of the income distribution
and this is the top 10% of the income distribution. And the scores are expressed
in standard deviations. And they’re constructed to
have an average of zero. So on average the lowest
income kids have test scores that are about three quarters
of a standard deviation below the typical student. The richest kids have test
scores that are about .6 standard deviations above average. So the gap between these two
is what’s called the 90-10 gap, the gap between the kids
in the 90th percentile of the income distribution,
kids at the 10th percentile. So, this is over a standard deviation gap. It’s a big gap, this is a big difference. As context, another gap
that people have paid a lot of attention to is the
Black-White test score gap. And that’s about right now
about half a standard deviation. So this is considerably larger. This is that same concept, but
over multiple birth cohorts. So it’s looking at how
it’s changed over time. So what we had for those
kids in 2006, is this one over here, the gap was about
1.25 standard deviations. It used to be more like
.75 standard deviations. It’s grown over time so this
is not shrinking, it’s growing. So there are gaps in academic preparation as of eighth grade. You can go further back. There are gaps in preparation
as of third grade. There are gaps in number of
words known in kindergarten. So the gap between the
bottom and the top is large and has been growing over time. This for contrast is the
Black-White gap over time. So at almost the same rate that this is, it’s actually been dropping
faster than this has been rising but this is a success story. So the Black-White gap has
been dropping over time. The income gap has been
rising considerably over time. So income inequality and
academic achievements, and as we saw in educational attainment, like do you have a BA,
has been rising over time. And this is over a period of decades during which the federal
government and state governments have been doing a lot to
open access to college. So community colleges
just started coming around in the 1970s, 1960s, the Pell Grant and all the other aid
programs that you know about only started in about 1972, ’75. So between those two
cohorts that I showed you, the cohorts born in the ’60s
and the cohorts born later, a whole lot of money and effort was poured into trying to reduce these inequities. And maybe they would have grown faster without all those efforts, we don’t know, but they certainly have not shrunk. OK, now, so we have these test score gaps. So that could explain part of the reason why we end up seeing differences in who goes to college,
who completes college. Big differences in academic preparation. That suggests that we need
to fix the K-12 system in some way so that there
aren’t such big gaps in academic preparation. What I’m next going to show you is, if we focus on kids who have
similar academic preparation, but differ in terms of their income, that we still have big gaps
in who goes to college, and in this case, and
who completes college. OK, so this is from an article, these headlines here are from articles that I’ve done for The New
York Times on these topics. And if you Google these titles you’ll find the lengthier discussion of the topic as well as links to
the underlying research that it’s talking about. So any graph that you see that’s pretty and kinda this maroon is
coming from The New York Times ’cause they’re better at graphs than I am. (audience laughing) So what do we have here? We have eighth grade test scores. And we have broken up test
scores into the bottom quartile, second, third, highest quartile. So at the top there is
the lowest test scores going to the highest, and then we’ve got, this is not just income,
it’s socioeconomic status, which is like a combination of income plus a parental occupation,
parental education. But roughly you can say low income, middle income, high income. So what we have up there on the top left of this complicated graph is that 5% of kids from the lowest 25%
of the income distribution. Are you picking this up even when I don’t turn my head like this? They’re not complaining up there. I can’t see them, there’s
a bright light in my face. 5% of kids from the lowest income group who also have the lowest
test scores get a BA. If you look over at the high-income kids with the same test scores,
21% of them get a BA. So these are the kids with
the lowest 25% of test scores, 21% of them are managing to get a BA if they’re in a high income family. So that’s, you know, well,
you know, fine, good on them, but what I find tragic is this part. So the kids with the highest test scores from the lowest income families, just 41% of them end up getting a BA compared to 74% of the high-income kids. In fact, they’re the same as kind of the mediocre kids
from the high income families in terms of their BA completion, right. Second highest test, the
second lowest test scores for high-income kids have the
same rate of BA completion as the highest test scores
for the low-income kids. OK, so even once you
condition on, once you focus on those with better preparation, you still see enormous
gaps in BA completion. And I’m gonna show you
more along these lines, OK. So I’m starting to get
into some of what we know about solutions, I’m gonna alternate a bit between the problem and the solutions. So one way we know to
change this, one reason why we see some of this is
that a lot of these kids, these poor kids with
the highest test scores, instead of going to a university they go to a community
college or a technical school or a for-profit school where
the likelihood of getting a BA is very low, right, so trying
to get them to take the SAT and do the college prep
track and go to a university is sort of part of the battle. One thing that works in that battle is having universal college testing. So as you likely know, the SAT or the ACT you have to register for
it, you need to pay for it, you need to travel to the test center typically on a weekend
to go take the test. In about 12 states and in
a lot more school districts the SAT or the ACT is given
in school on a school day for free to juniors or to sophomores. Some of them also do the PSAT. But basically it’s part
of the testing regime that they do in the
schools instead of relying on teachers and parents to
get kids to these tests. And when this is done, so
when you compare the states in which this has happened,
look at what was going on before after compare them to states
where nothing has changed you see a lot of shrinkage
in income and racial gaps in one who takes the test and
in test score differences. So at Michigan, started
having a mandatory ACT, and you can compare the year before that when it was all voluntary, and
we’ve got all the test scores to when it was mandatory,
and where you see all of a sudden lots of people appear are low-income kids
with pretty high scores. So it’s not, you might think
that who doesn’t take the test is low-scoring kids, they’re the ones who chose not to take the
test, and that’s true, in large part, that’s a
lot of what’s going on, but a disturbing number of kids, or depending on what you think of this, it’s either kind of a happy thing. All of a sudden a lot of
high-scoring low-income kids appear and they also tend to be non-White. And this has been found to reduce racial and income gaps in who goes to college. The act of taking this
reveals a lot of talent. These kids are now spurred
on to apply to college, go to college, complete college. So just this very small policy itself and the very low cost helps
to increase college attendance and college completion
for disadvantaged groups. One of my doctoral students, Josh Hyman, who’s now at University of Connecticut did the study on Michigan. I urged him to study this topic in part because of my own
experiences in this world. So I was a rather difficult teenager. And the nuns at my
Catholic school, I think, did not have much hope for me. My sisters had gone to the same school and I think they contributed
to this reputation of the Dynarski girls. So Sister Carmelina, I
think, didn’t have high hopes for what I was going to be doing. So junior year I needed
to get my tonsils out. There’s an end to this story, I’ll come. (audience laughing)
I needed to get my tonsils out and my mom, ’cause she’s
very conscientious, she care a lot about education, she was spending what little money she had to send me to a Catholic school, right, because she thought it would
give me a better education. She called, wanted to get
a date that I could go get my tonsils out where I
wouldn’t miss too much in school. And Sister Carmelina told
her the day of the PSAT. So she told her that I
should go get my tonsils out the day of the PSAT because I
wasn’t that kind of material. Right, so I didn’t take the
PSAT, which means I didn’t get into the whole National
Merit Scholarship competition. I didn’t start getting mailings
about college and so forth. None of that happened until senior year when I took the SAT myself. When I took the SAT myself,
the Monday after SATs came I got called to the office
because they wanted to start, you know, congratulations. We’ve never seen scores that high. It was just like, really? And then they started
giving some attention. So my sisters went to UMass Boston. At this point, so this is
like, November of senior year, they had low expectations for me, right? So I’m a story of one, but this data suggests it’s not just me. There’s a lot of this going on. There are talented kids
who are getting missed because people don’t have
high expectations of them. And a lot of this starts
way back in grammar school, but some of it’s even happening when you get up to high school and kids who are well-prepared are not getting shunted
into the right schools. All right, so the SAT
is one of these barriers that sort of holds back
certain populations. And this all leading up
to one of the solutions I’m going to talk to you about. The process by which we apply
for student aid in the U.S. is another barrier, so this is something I’ve been on a rampage
about for about 15 years now documenting how complicated
the student aid system is. So the aid application, the FAFSA, which you probably all
have some experience with, is about 120 questions. That’s more complicated
than the typical 1040. So the typical 1040 in the
U.S. is the EZ or the A. A majority of households
fill out the EZ or A, which is 20 to 40 questions. So the aid application is
more complicated than taxes, which we don’t usually talk about as being an easy experience. I put the FAFSA through a website that measures the level
of education that you need to read the next, these are easy to find if you want to sort of defog,
they call it, your own writing you can put your writing
in, it will tell you. You know, newspapers aim for 10th grade, maybe even eighth grade for clear writing. I put through the FAFSA and
it was a graduate degree was required to read the
form that is intended to get more people into college, right? So it’s got problems. We have evidence that when
we simplify this process, when we ease the process
of applying for aid more people go to college, fairly big increases. And there are ways to do this. I’ve been pushing on
the public policy front. I’ve suggested getting rid
of the FAFSA altogether and just using tax data to qualify people. You could just automatically tell people when they do their taxes, here’s how much you’d be eligible for
if you went to college. You don’t need, three of
the questions on the FAFSA basically account for
about 90% of the variation in who gets federal aid. The rest of the questions don’t add much. The intuition is, if you know
somebody’s on food stamps, you don’t need to ask them about their 403(b) or their 401(k), right, ’cause you’ve already determined they’re gonna be eligible for aid. OK, so that was a bunch of the description and now I go to the next one and while the music plays that’s me so you can find the
papers and the research that I refer to on my website. You can find me being
really snarky at Twitter. If you don’t have a taste for obscenities don’t follow me on Twitter
(audience laughing) ’cause I swear a lot about
what’s going on in the world. All right, so now this is some good news. So I just showed you,
basically, a lot of the stuff that sort of inspires my research. I’ve done some of the research
that I just showed you. And so my most recent work,
which I find really exciting, is work I’ve done in partnership with the University of Michigan trying to get more low-income students to apply to Michigan and attend Michigan. Michigan, like all of the
very selective schools, has had historically a pretty low rate of low-income students. At many of the elite
school in this country there are as many students from the top 1% of the income distribution
as from the bottom 60% of the income distribution. That’s typical of places
like Harvard, Dartmouth, and previously at Michigan as well. And this is joint work with
people I’m very proud of. This is one of my doctoral
students, former postdoc, former MPP, current MPP. He graduated from the Ford School, now works at The College Board. All right, so here are
some data, more data now in some characteristic
colors, some random colors. Go blue.
(audience laughing) And what we have here, so I
won’t name the faculty member who asked me, “So is
football big at Michigan?” (audience laughing) (laughs) Anyway, so what we have here now are low-income students in blue. This is from data from the
Michigan Department of Education. This is the universe
of juniors in Michigan. And what we’ve selected here, I selected with the University of Michigan a set of students who had GPAs and SATs, which are universal in Michigan, high enough that Michigan
would recruit them. You know, the kind of
kids that they would, their scores are high enough, their grades are high enough
that they’ll send the packets. Add to the big pile of stuff
that juniors gets in the mail. So it’s that set of students,
and it’s broken up by whether they were eligible for free
and reduced priced lunch while they were in school as juniors. So think of that as roughly
$40,000 a year and below is what free and reduced price lunch is. And you’re gonna hear me say
FRPL by mistake sometimes. Free and reduced priced lunch. So the free lunch kids are the
blue and then everybody else, you know, we didn’t say high income ’cause it’s basically 40 and
above, which is not high, right so it’s a real mix of middle
income and upper income. So what proportion of
them go to college at all? Well, there’s a gap even in that. And these are kids who are high achieving because Michigan would
think of recruiting them. So 84% of the low-income kids and 88% of their better off peers. If you look at, do they go
to a competitive school, and competitive is, I’ll
show you some examples of competitive versus highly competitive. Michigan is a highly competitive school. University of Michigan is a
highly competitive school. Michigan State University is
a very competitive school. Then down here you
start to get to sort of, we sometimes call them the
directional universities or the community colleges
are gonna be in here as well. So what you see though all
the way through these gaps. So these differences
indicate that for kids with similar, who have
comparable academic preparation we’ve got big differences
in their attendance. At places like Michigan, eight
percentage point difference right here, so this is kind of like, this is what we saw as our opportunity. So when I first talking in
Michigan they came to me, they knew my research, they want to know, what can we do to get
more low income students into University of Michigan? I said, well start out
by looking at the data, because the first thing
that came to mind for them and most people in admissions offices is that there aren’t
low-income kids out there. They don’t have the academic preparation, and so you gotta fix the K-12 system if you wanna fix this problem. This was showing that there are people, there’s big gaps here, so you can think of this eight percentage
point difference here as the set of students
you could be recruiting. These low-income students have
good academic preparation, but unlike their upper income peers they’re not going to a
highly competitive school. So based on previous research we decided to design an intervention that
would push out information to these students about
the kinds of scholarships they’d be eligible for if
they came to the university. And through my partnership
with the state of Michigan we had data on these students. We had their home addresses,
which we got permission to use and send them information. So this is just to make the point of how much of a difference it can make where you go to school in just one state. So here’s University of Michigan. For students with family
income in the range that we’re talking about, the free
and reduced price lunch kids, Michigan just cost about $6,500 because we’re very generous
with our need-based aid. If you went to Michigan
State University instead you’d pay almost twice as much. They don’t have as much
money for need-based aid. And also, 90% of Michigan
students graduate, University of Michigan graduate. Drops down to 78% when you go to MSU. You move to Eastern, this
is one of our directionals, about as expensive as
MSU, grad rate is 38% These are not atypical grad rates. And you have to go to
Washtenaw Community College to get down to something anywhere
near as cheap as Michigan, and the grad rate there is 16%. And this is not just
Michigan, this is nationwide. This is what the statistics look like. So getting somebody up
here instead of down here is gonna make a real difference in the likelihood that they’re
gonna graduate college, OK. And you can see the income
differences as well, right? So median salary after graduating from University of Michigan,
60,000, 50,000, right. You can see the numbers. All right, and there is a
lot of evidence at this point that this is not just about smart kids who are gonna graduate anyway going here. That’s part of the story,
but there is a real impact that it has if you take a
given kid and drop ’em here instead of here it’s gonna make
a difference in their lives. They’re more likely to graduate college. They’re more likely to
end up with a good job. Their lives will be changed. So that’s what we aim to do. So how do we get them to
Michigan, what’s the problem? One idea is, let me just leave
this up here for a second. One idea is to, once they’ve applied give them very generous scholarship offers and try to get them in that way. Thing is, they’re not applying. And research done by Caroline
Hoxby and Chris Avery showed this, so what is this? This is a complicated set of graphs. So what we have here are
very high achieving students. This is kids who have
like the top 5% nationwide of SAT scores, and we’ve got ’em broken up into the high-income kids
and the low-income kids. And what we have here
are their applications that they sent in and what we’ve got is zero indicates that the school that they sent their
application to had the same, the typical student
had the same SAT scores as the kid who was applying. So you might things of
like, this is a match on their academic ability
as measured by the SAT. These would be reach schools. The SAT is higher, typical
SAT at the school is higher than the applicants, and
these would be safety schools. All right, and if you look
at the high-income kids, it’s sort of centered around their score, couple of reach schools,
some safety schools. This is a college counselor’s dream. This is what you’re supposed to do is there’s this range of applications. Very few of them, less than 10% apply to nonselective schools. This is the low-income kids
with the same SAT scores. For them, over 40% of them
apply to a nonselective school, and that includes community colleges. And over here there’s
no, notice how that one was sort of centered around zero. This is just scattershot, right? So there’s no particular pattern. So it’s this application
margin that seems to matter. So you need to get them to apply to the more selective schools if you want to get them into
the more selective schools. The time at which you’re making
the aid offers is too late. It’s the application you need to change. So with the University
of Michigan’s Admissions and Financial Aid Office, and
based on previous research on this question including
what I showed you about simplicity of the
aid system, we came up with making students a
simplified early commitment of four years of free
tuition and fees at U-M if they get in of course. This was not a guarantee of admission. It was a guarantee of
aid if they got admitted. Called it a scholarship,
the HAIL scholarship. High-Achieving Involved Leaders,
HAIL is a Michigan thing. And it was no strings attached. This was unconditional, this
was not depending on you filling out the FAFSA
or the additional form that Michigan requires, which is called the
PROFILE, even longer form. If they got in, they were
gonna get this scholarship. If they filled out those forms
they might get even more, but they were gonna get
that no matter what. We delivered it to the kids’ homes in the form of a packet that
I’m gonna show you in a second. We also sent a letter to their parents telling them their kid got this, and to their high school
telling the principal this list of kids in your
school is getting this offer. So this is what it looks like, right. The colors again, right. HAIL Scholarship, Victors 2020. So this is for the students
who’d be the class of 2020. Addressed to them, coming
from the university. This was big, this was a
big, heavy, glossy package. My son, who’s now a freshman
in college, was applying, getting college information
during this time and I could see what
he, so much stuff comes into the mailbox, and a lot of
it is plain white envelopes. And previous research had
shown that in many cases students don’t open these envelopes. (audience laughing)
I could have told you that from the stack of them
on my kitchen table, but when something that
looks like this comes in it gets more attention, right? And you know, I would see
him and he would actually pick something up and
he would go like this. You know like, ah, they’re serious. And so that’s what we were aiming for. So this was a big, hefty,
glossy cardboard package. You open it up and we’ve
got a personalized note. It would have their name on it from the president of our university. Four years of free tuition
if admitted, right? So it says, you’re awesome, please apply. You’re gonna get this tuition offer. All right, if you apply
to U-M and are admitted we’re prepared to cover the full cost of your in-state tuition and
fees for four years of study at U-M’s Ann Arbor campus. That’s an approximately $60,000 value to you and your family. Furthermore, after review
of your aid applications you’ll likely be eligible for more. We had compare, we had looked at, when we looked at students
at the University of Michigan who had come from Michigan schools who were free and
reduced priced lunch kids almost all of them were
getting a totally free ride. Not just tuition and fees, but
also room and board, books, all that stuff, so once we
got these kids admitted, they filled out the forms
and they got much more money than this tuition and fees. All right, so all sorts of stuff in it. Wolverines, attend with free tuition. Stuff that emphasizes that
they don’t have to pay for the common application, they don’t need to pay for the FAFSA, they don’t need to pay for the PROFILE. They’re gonna get free wavers
for all of those things. So trying to reduce
the financial barriers, the procedural barriers
as much as possible. Give people certainty
about the cost of college. Previous research had
shown that low-income kids in particular overestimates
the cost, and their parents overestimates the tuition
costs, underestimate their aid. High-income kids also get this wrong, but their parents get it right. And it’s the parents who
are making the decisions. So trying to get clear information was what we were aiming for. So this is the nerdiest slide here, right. So what I’m gonna show
you today is results for these first two cohorts who
were juniors in ’15 and ’16, spring of ’15 and ’16 who met
the ACT and GPA requirements that U-M defined, so it’s
about 2,000 students a year. And we randomly split
them up into two groups. One group was gonna get that
packet I just showed you and one group was gonna get
whatever business as usual was. So Michigan always sends out
stuff, they recruit people. So they were getting whatever such kids would typically get from
the University of Michigan. There are these 2,000 kids in each cohort are scattered across the state. So the size of these dots indicates how many of these low-income
high-achieving students there were in each neighborhood. And you can see in many
places there’s just one. So these kids are isolated, and they’re typically in rural areas. So most of these kids are in rural areas. Over half of them are
located in rural areas. Down here, this is where Ann
Arbor is as well as Detroit. Over here’s Grand Rapids
and Upper Peninsula. So this is where the rural area is. A lot of students apply
from schools down here, and we draw a lot from here,
which really annoys the Regents who are over here and up here, right. So this was also kind of helping to solve a political problem
for the university as well. OK, so part of that
packet I just showed you was a little thing that said, login now to get more
information and a free T-shirt. And we gave them a login
which was personalized. It’s called a PURL, personalized URL so we could tell when somebody logged in. And so this is a measure
of first-time visits to the HAIL webpage. So here’s when the student letter dropped for the first cohort, and
there’s the spike in activity at the webpage, here’s where
the parent letter dropped, another spike in activity. So hitting both the parents and the kids seemed to really make a difference here. All right, so let’s look at the results. It’s a randomized trial,
so all we have to do is compare what happened
for the treatment group and what happened to the control group. And for the control group,
this is business as usual, 26% of them applied to the
University of Michigan. And for the treatment group, 67% applied to the University of Michigan. I’m not showing you standard
errors in any of this. They’re all statistically significant if that’s something that you care about. If you look then at, so
here’s the application again. This wound up, this is not admission. This is now of the people
who were sent this packet, 67% of them applied, of the
people who sent the packet, 32% of them got in, so about half of those who applied got in roughly, right. But it’s about roughly
the same admission rate for the two groups, and then finally, if you look at actually coming
to University of Michigan, which net of applying and getting in and choosing University of Michigan. Control group, 12% attended
the University of Michigan and for the treatment group 27% attended University of Michigan. Each of these groups is about 1,000 kids, so that’s a boost of
about 150 kids per fall. So an additional 150 low-income kids coming to the University
of Michigan in the fall for the past several years. This is, now I’m breaking
this up into Southeast. Remember again, this is where
University of Michigan is and where Detroit is, so there
even just the control group had a pretty high application rate. It’s 36% of kids in the
southeast were already applying. And that was their impression, right, was that the southeast was already getting a lot of applications. In the west Grand Rapids area, and particularly in the Upper Peninsula, just 20% and 16% of the
control group were applying. And what we see is the biggest jumps are coming from the places that had the lowest application
rates in the first place. So out in the Upper Peninsula
we’re going from 16% to 55%. In the Grand Rapids area
we’re going from 20% to 66%. So this was very helpful information to put before the Regents
from those regions. They liked that a lot. So it really had its biggest impact in the places that were starting out with the lowest application rates. This is the analogous picture
for actually enrolling. So we went from 8% to 25%
in the Upper Peninsula. 9% to 24 in the Grand Rapids area. 17 to 30 in the southeast, so huge. These are huge effects
in education research. Just to be clear, these are enormous. And there’s some variation across region, but overall they’re just big everywhere. I’m gonna skip this one. Now, all of this could have
come from us poaching students, high-achieving students
who would have gone to, say, Berkeley and luring
them to Michigan instead. That would not have been from
my perspective a good outcome. I wanted to get kids who were gonna go to a much lower-ranked school
to bump up to Michigan. So from different data, we
had to wait for different data to come out to check on this,
and these are those data. So this is data that has information on enrollment nationwide. We don’t have information
about applications nationwide. We have information about
where you go to school, but not where you’re applied. So what we can see from these
nationwide data is that, here’s this 15 percentage point
impact on the likelihood of going to Michigan that
I showed you before. This is the impact on going to a school that is as competitive as Michigan or more competitive than
Michigan, and it’s zero. So if we had been poaching students from those other schools, if
we’d stole all of our students from Berkeley this
would be a negative .146 perfectly offsetting it. If we’d encouraged some
students by getting this letter, hey, look, I’m hot, I
should apply to more, this would be positive. There’d be an even bigger effect. But basically, it’s all
operating through U-M. We didn’t poach any students from other highly
selective schools at all. From Harvard, from Berkeley, from any of the other highly selective
schools, so zero poaching. Where they did come from,
all right, so remember the overall effect is
about 15 percentage points, what that .146 is is 15 percentage points. They came form, well 4% of them, 4% would not have gone to college at all. So that’s what this is, so we got a boost of four percentage
points in the likelihood of going to college at
all, which gobsmacked me ’cause these kids have high
SAT scores and high GPAs. But we boosted the likelihood
of going to college at all by about four percentage points. Another four percentage
points of that total of 15 is coming from two-year colleges. They’re shifting from community colleges to University of Michigan,
which is a big shift. It is a big shift to go
from a community college to University of Michigan. No one student made that shift. This is comparing the
treatment and control groups. That’s the shift that we induced. And then about half of
it, seven and 1/2 percent is coming from lower ranked
four-year institutions, right. So Western Michigan University, Northern Michigan University,
Michigan State University. That’s where those are coming from. And none of it, as I said,
is coming from schools as selective or more selective
than University of Michigan. All right, so here’s what I just said. Yes, I just said all that. And I’m almost done here. It would be bad if we got
them to come to Michigan and then they were totally outclassed and dropped out immediately. And we’ve got information
on now three years of enrollment for the first cohort. This is two years of it
and it’s basically showing, so for this first cohort the
impact on going to college at all was a bit bigger,
about six percentage points. Impact of going to college
two years in a row, eight percentage points
because we got them to go to colleges where they’re
more likely to not drop, they’re less likely to drop out. So the effect on going to college at all is going to be going up. The effect on going to a
four-year college is going up. It was 9% for one year. Going to four-year college for two years, 11 percentage points increase. So the effects are not fading. On some margins they’re increasing, so they are sticking around. And you know, we knew this
from just talking to people around the university,
they’re sticking around at about the same rate as
other low-income students at the institution, they’re not
any more likely to drop out. So this is closing now with a
picture that I started with, but with a bit more information now. So remember, I’ve showed
you before statistics for the upper income kids,
they’re now in gray here. And the yellow here is the
students who are high-achieving low-income, but in our control group. So they didn’t get the treatment. In the middle is the students
who get the treatment. What you can see is that there was a gap of seven percentage points
in college attendance between the control group
and these high-income kids. For those who got our
treatment, the gap is closed by about 1/2, right? So instead of being 81 versus
88, seven percentage points, it’s just a three percentage
point gap now for those. So closed by about half the
gap in going to college. Closed by about half the gap in going to a competitive college. More than closed the gap in going to a very competitive or above. So like if you look up,
here’s Michigan now. In Michigan now the low-income kids who got this treatment are more likely than the upper-income kids to
go to University of Michigan. OK, so I started with
depressing statistics. I showed you something evidence-based that actually seems to
move the needle on this. This is not the solution. I am not claiming this is the solution. I’m very much of a, it’s
a little bit at a time that you fix things, and this is one thing that can fix one problem. The fact that so few low-income
kids even have the scores or the GPAs to end up in this group is a much bigger problem
and needs solving, but this seems to help a lot
with this particular problem of low-income kids, undermatching
is what it’s called. Going to schools that
are not as challenging as the ones that they could go to. And that it’s it, I already said all that. And this is, all of these
data and all this cooperation came from both the state of Michigan as well as the University of Michigan. And they don’t necessarily
agree with anything I say unless it reflects well on them. (audience laughing) And that’s it.
(audience applauding) Now we’re gonna have questions,
and there are people, they’re called ambassadors,
there are people with microphones wandering around. Don’t start a question until
they stick the microphone in your face because all
of this is being recorded and you won’t be heard until you’re actually
speaking into a microphone. And who’s gonna call on people? Lori’s gonna call on people, OK. – [Staff Member] Oh come on
now, y’all can’t be this shy. There we go. – Other people can touch it, that’s OK– – [Audience Member] Thank you so much for this wonderful research. Actually it’s opened my eye to many facts and I saw the bigger picture. Just I’m wondering, what are, respective of the
procedures that you talked, procedures are in place
that creates obstacles or blocks for low-income
students to get to the school? What are missing variables in this in addition to the policies? – You know, so there’s
been a lot of research trying to identify, what is
the source of these gaps. And so, you should pass your mic back. You get one question, one.
(audience laughing) And your question has to end
in a question mark, right, not a comma or a semicolon. I’m not talking about you. Other peoples have been known
to do this sort of thing. I used to be on the faculty in Cambridge at Harvard University, and oh my God. Getting a Harvard faculty
member actually end a sentence is quite an achievement. So you know, one barrier is this. You have uncertainty about financial aid. Information about where
they are suited to apply to. The financial aid form is complicated. There’s a whole host of
issues that lead to the gap that I showed you, this is
just one of the solutions for one of the pieces of the gap. – [Audience Member] So hi. Thank you for just opening
our eyes to all of that. I just have a question
because I know you mentioned things that can be done
to fix this problem and to encourage more
students to go to college, to go to more competitive
universities, but what can we do also at the elementary level? – That would be like 10 or
15 more lectures, right. So there is a good body of evidence about what is effective in
closing those test score gaps that I showed you, policies that work. So around the country we’ve got evidence that smaller classes
work particularly well for disadvantaged populations, that students do better in smaller classes in elementary school, and
that’s particularly true for disadvantaged kids. We’ve got evidence that there
are some charter schools in Boston and New York
that have been effective in closing economic and
racial gaps in test scores and in educational attainment. They’ve done some of that work. Also have evidence in other states that charter schools do nothing. So people have been studying the high-achieving charter schools to try to figure out what they’re doing. But if this is a topic that interests you, there’s a whole book about this thick. I’ve got one chapter in there. That’s where the initial graphs
came from that I showed you called Whither Opportunity. And it’s by Dick Murnane and Greg Duncan, and it talks extensively
and describes extensively the inequality I’ve
talking about briefly here. And they have a follow-on
book that focuses on about six education
policies that have been shown to be effective in closing those gaps. So you know, you basically
need the same kind of approach, though, you diagnose the problem, identify a potential solution
based on the research that you’ve got and then test it in a way that lets you know
whether it worked or not. So we used a randomized trial here, and that was a condition of me working with the University of
Michigan so that we could know whether this worked or not. If we had just introduced this
for the entire freshman class potential freshman class we
wouldn’t have been able to tell if what we had done had worked, or if just this was a very
talented freshman class, or the wind was blowing
the right way that year. You need to be able to
compare what’s going on with your treatment group
to what would be going on with a set of students identical to them if you really want to know
that you’ve nailed the impact of this, and then you can
confidently either decide to ditch the project ’cause it didn’t work or move on to expand it to more students. – [Staff Member] Do you have the mic? Is this the only mic? – [Audience Member] Thanks and go blue. (audience laughing) – You’ve got a traitor in your midst. Destroy him at the reception, convert. – [Audience Member]
That’s why I didn’t say it during the lecture, I
waited ’til afterwards. I was just curious about your opinion regarding the USC scandal and NCAA, all that going on relative to your talk. – Well, it’s enraging, right? So at the same time that we’ve
got talented low-income kids who aren’t even applying
to these selective schools, we’ve got untalented high-income kids who are getting their ways
cheated into these schools, so it’s outrageous! If you would like to see me
swearing a lot, go to Twitter. (audience laughing)
And so, you know, I think it’s a great sign of how much, people know this is
worth something, right? So anybody tells you that
college isn’t worth it, the people who tend to be saying
that college isn’t worth it are the ones who are
sending their kids to USC and spending a lot on college, right? So you don’t, it tends to
be college isn’t worth it for your kids, it’s
worth it for mine, right. So it’s a very valuable commodity. Getting kids into these
schools is important. The sports angle, the sports channel is where a lot of this
cheating is happening because admissions offices
don’t have enough control over those lists that the coaches use, and I think this is gonna lead
to some big changes in that. Where I hope it does not
lead, I’ve heard some people in some states saying,
oh, well part of this was about SAT cheating, we
should get rid of the SAT. Of all of the things
that people can cheat on on trying to get into a selective college, the SAT is probably the thing
that’s hardest to cheat on. So you know, you saw all the
things that they managed to do. So like, Photoshopping people’s
faces onto Olympic rowers, right, and fabricating activities and having their GPAs
artificially pumped up. All that stuff is
relatively easy to cheat on. The SAT is probably the hardest one of all of these to cheat on, and the ACT. So in terms of, it’s not a level
playing field by any means, but as we showed through that research, having a universal SAT actually helps to eliminate some gaps
between disadvantaged and less disadvantaged groups. If we got rid of the SAT and the ACT I predict we would broaden
the gaps that we see in attending selective schools. – [Audience Member] Hi,
thank you for your talk. So kind of basing off of that
universal SAT or ACT system, what was the cost increase
for implementing that? Was there a significant one,
or was it roughly the same? – Typically where it’s happened,
so in Michigan for example because of NCLB and its
escendant, which comes from Bush, and its descendant ESSA,
these are federal laws that require testing, at least one test while somebody’s in high school. Michigan replaced their
other test with this. So instead of having a state-specific test that wasn’t gonna be useful for anything except for accountability,
they replaced it with the SAT. And so the cost is basically nothing. In a place where they add
it to the other testing, the cost is the initial time
taken away from instruction, and typically about 50
or 60 bucks per kid. So in terms of bang for the buck, if you sort of do a
cost-benefit analysis on this of how much impact you get
on the outcome you care about and how much you spend to get there, it’s one of the cheapest
things you can do. – [Audience Member] Actually the low income is like a financial, the financial aid at school
and the lack of information about it is a big variable, but also there is another variable which is the cultural variable. I mean, family, especially
for the immigrants, they have some issues
like they do not want to send their kids very
far away or something. So have you addressed
some issues like this? And if yes, how did you diagnose that? – I mean, you know, in the Upper Peninsula where maybe that’s, it’s a big distance from the Upper Peninsula to Umich. And maybe part of what’s going on is that parents don’t want
their kids to go that far, but you know, everybody’s got preferences, but in the face of being given information about the benefits, it can
start to weigh the other way. And the evidence indicated
that may have been part of what was going on, and why
we see the biggest impacts in rural areas. Being told that the
kid’s tuition is covered could help with that to some degree. Being told that University of Michigan thinks your kid’s pretty awesome, in fact, so awesome that they’re gonna
offer them this scholarship could help to bend that, so the reason why we send stuff to the parents is because we suspect,
believe from lots of evidence that it’s a joint decision, right. It is both the parents and the kids and the schools that make
this decision together. So whatever the set of things
that was holding kids back, this seems to have loosened it up. That may have been one of the factors. We didn’t address it directly. We didn’t say, hey, you shouldn’t worry about sending your kid
to Ann Arbor, it’s safe. Here are the crime rates, right? We just instead provided this and it seems to have done something. – [Audience Member] Thank
you again for coming. You mentioned that you– – You’re really far from everything, I just want to note that. – [Audience Member] Yes, it’s
a burden that we all bear. You mentioned that you send
materials to school leaders, principals, did you learn
anything through that about how school personnel
can help motivate these kids to apply to schools? – No, I mean, that’d be kind
of condescending actually for the University of Michigan
to tell college counselors, here’s how to do your job, so no. It was just notifying them that, here’s this program that’s available. College counselors, by the
way, are hugely overburdened, especially in low income and rural areas. I mean, having student loads
of thousands of students or more is not unusual at all,
and they’re doing everything. So they’re counseling kids who are having horrifying
experiences in their family lives as well as getting them through the college application process. So relying on counselors
to kind of fix this I don’t think is a solution. So we were trying to do something that didn’t rely on the counselors doing much of anything
because in many cases they’re doing as much as they can. – [Audience Member] Thank
you again for coming. – You want another comment
about how far away you are? – [Audience Member] No, that’s
all right, thank you though. I’m curious if you had any opinions on early college high school programs and if they have any
success in getting students not only to apply to colleges, but stay in a college and graduate, if that has had any positive
success on students. – So these are models in which kids do a few years of high school
and then basically enroll concurrently in a college, so in Michigan we’ve got one of these at
Washtenaw Community College. The kids enter as freshmen,
high school freshmen and then start taking
college course right way and come out with an AA. At Eastern Michigan
University they start out and then enter the
university and get a BA. So I do not know of any, you gotta think that the kinda kids who choose
to do this kind of program are those who are kind of
academically inclined anyway. So it’s really hard to tease
out what of it is selection and what of it is, they’re
just selecting the best kids, and the best kids are choosing it ’cause these are typically
admitted by lottery, and how much is sort of
an effect of the program that would work if we took
a random kid off the street and put ’em through it. I don’t of strong evidence on it. I mean, in theory it fixes
a bunch of the constraints we worry about, right, so
they’re right there in school. They’re getting college credits. They’re probably getting some coaching through the FAFSA process, right? But I have not seen a
rigorous test of them. Do you know of any? No, OK, any questions that I don’t answer Kalena here is your local expert and can answer all the
questions about college access and inequality in education. – [Audience Member] So for those students who are the low income,
are you able to look at all in terms of trauma in their
families, for example, being pulled out by
Child Protective Services or anything like that? – You know, we didn’t, but
in our research lab we could because they’re all Michigan students. And we have their educational data going back to kindergarten,
so if that information were in the administrative
data, and sometimes it is, we could see that. Some of my colleagues have,
in separate research projects, been looking at that question. So looking at what happens to a kid who is or isn’t recommended
for foster care. Or what happens to test scores for kids who were in Child Protective Services. So it is possible to look
at that with these data. It’s as bad as you might think in terms of its impact on kids. – [Audience Member] I was just curious about what your plans are for next steps. I imagine that it will
involve expanding program– – Isn’t this enough?
(audience laughing) Can’t I retire now? – [Audience Member] Expanding
it probably in Michigan, and if it continues to work,
expanding it to other states. What are your plans? – Yeah, so because, this is
the first two cohorts, which, you know, were a number of years ago. It was very successful,
and because of this Michigan decided to introduce something called the Go Blue Guarantee. So this is a guarantee
that if you’re, well, it’s a promise that if
your income is below median for the state, about $65,000 a year that you’ll be able to
get free tuition and fees at the University of Michigan, but you need to fill out the FAFSA, and you need to fill out the profile. And if your assets are too high, so it’s got a bunch of
asterisks attached to it, which most of these programs do. So we continue the randomization actually, and kept the control group
for the next two cohorts so that we could compare now the effect of the HAIL scholarship to now the new normal was now this program, so
we are explicitly comparing the effect of the personalized guarantee to a sort of advertise it and
it’s not quite a guarantee. So that’s the next set of papers that we’re going to be
doing is looking at that. We’re gonna be looking at the
long-term effects of this. So at the Michigan Education
Data Center, which I run, we’ve got information
on students’ transcripts if they stay in the public
institutions in the state. So looking at what kind
of courses they take, what kind of majors they go into. Somewhere down the line
once they’ve graduated and enter the labor force, maybe it’s gonna be my own
students who do this work. We’ll look at earnings
and we’ll look at impacts on wealth and home ownership
and that sort of thing, ideally using tax data. All of this though is being
done using administrative data. We haven’t fielded any surveys
to make any of this happen, so it’s been pretty cheap to do it and the follow-up would be pretty cheap. And I am talking to people in other places to do something like this in other states. So I get calls, I get emails, and I’m happy to talk to people about trying this out
in their own setting. (audience member speaking
indistinctly off microphone) – [Audience Member] Hello? – Am I supposed to say damn it back? (audience laughing)
Is that being– – [Audience Member] You can. – (laughs) How much I swore – [Audience Member] So at
my high school growing up we had a college preparation center which had a lady there
or a couple of people who helped you prepare your FAFSA. They helped you out with
applying for college and stuff like that, have
you looked at any research or done any research on the effectiveness of those programs for low income students? – Yeah, so one of the, not
those programs in particular. I did something similar,
which was the experiment that I referred to that
showed that if you help people fill out their FAFSA it bumps
up the college attendance rate quite a bit, so if you can actually, and you know, obviously a
kid cannot by themselves fill out their FAFSA, right? You need their parents’ information. So just running it in
high school at lunch time doesn’t work unless you get
their parents there as well with all their tax records and their paycheck stubs and stuff. When you do manage to do
that, getting the work done seems to help with college attendance. – [Audience Member] Thank
you for the presentation. I have a question about
crowding out effect and if you have looked at it and how it impacts the
high-income students. – So Michigan’s a selective school. So if somebody gets in,
somebody else doesn’t get in. So somebody’s being crowded out. I like to think it’s those kids in the lowest 25% of the
test score distribution who are the richest, is
what I like to think. I mean, what we had looked at explicitly is to see if at the same high
school with this crowd out, does somehow if a kid in your
school gets this HAIL thing does that discourage you from applying or make them reject you because
they already got somebody from that school, and
there’s none of that. Statewide, if 150 kids
are going to Michigan, then a different 150 kids
are not going to Michigan. So there has to be crowdout. Only way to really get at
it is just sorta compare the demographics of the
whole class across cohorts. For the very first cohort of this they actually grew the class. So they added 600 slots. Our freshman class is 6,000 students and they grew it in that year. Not because of this, they just happened to be growing it in that year, so there was no crowdout
in the first year. We need to see that kind of growth in lots of selective institutions because as the population has grown, as the rate of attendance has gone up, the selective schools have
largely stayed the same size. So it’s harder and harder
to get into these schools. Harvard sits on like $30 billion and its the same size now
that it was 100 years ago, which I just think is a
crime, and I’m a double alum and I was on the faculty for 10 years, but I still think it’s a crime. Places like Michigan and
Berkeley have grown quite a bit, but could grow even more. – [Audience Member] It
seems that you dispel that there isn’t a college-going boom. – College graduation boom. There is not a college graduating boom. – [Audience Member] However,
there is an increase in the number that may
be attending college. – Yep, yep, yep. – [Audience Member] And so
the question is, is there, should everyone go to college? I mean, should–
– No. – [Audience Member] Everyone
consider college, and then– – Should everyone consider it? Sure.
– OK, but should everyone, is college for everyone, I
guess that’s my question. – No, no.
– Is college for everyone? – You know, so college
is not for everyone. And across the world. But everyone deserves a shot at a secure income and
security for their family and a home and health
insurance and right now a lot of that stuff goes with having a BA or some college education. You know, so our high
school’s been very focused on college prep, there’s
a lot less support for the student who wants
to go into the trades or who wants to go into skilled labor of some sort. So we need options and we need good education
for those students. Other countries do this
a lot better than us. You know, Germany has a very
strong apprenticeship program, for example, and there
are different tracks. The word track is a
dirty word in the U.S., but a track can mean that if
you’re not going to college you don’t just fall off
the face of the Earth. There’s other programs
that you can work through. You’re all sitting between us or talking between us and a
drink I want to point out, so… – [Audience Member] Thank
you, thank you for your talk. Regarding the other question
about the crowding out effect, how sustainable is this program if you are losing a student
that is paying for tuition? – Oh yeah, this is expensive. You know, so on a per student
basis it costs nothing. So the students who get this offer get the same amount of financial aid as other low-income students who come in through a non-HAIL channel, but additional 150 low-income kids adds a lot to the school’s costs if they’re replacing kids
who are paying full freight, that’s a lot of money,
so we’re raising money. Not me, but you know, when
I go and talk to alumni and talk about this and
then the president comes out right after me and says, and we need money for this student program. So you know, their attitude
was, go forward, do it, and we’ll find the money. So Michigan has a rabid loyal alumni base that contributes a lot
of money to this school. We’re not Harvard, but
we got about $11 billion in the endowment, and it’s growing. And this is what it’s used for. – [Kalena] One last. Do you have a question, Anya? – [Anya] So aside from finances, have you seen any lasting ramifications of the sudden influx of low-income
students on your campus? – Well, it’s 150 out of 6,000, right, so we’re not talking
about the White Walkers coming down into Westeros, right? But you have seen, it’s been appreciable. So there is now and there
was not before this started, there’s a first-gen center on campus, and that was partly because
the students were demanding it. What? – [Audience Member] No, I’m
just shocked that there wasn’t. – Yeah, there was none. No, there was no first-gen
center and now there is. And in general the students,
once they get to school there’s actually no HAIL programming. And the students have
been complaining about it. The HAIL students have
been complaining about it. I’m very proud of them. So they’re kinda like,
where’s the supports? Blah, blah, blah, so they’ve
been raising a ruckus and asking for more supports. So I think it is gonna
force the institution into sort of recognizing
this group and their needs. The university had done a
lot of programming around, there was a Black student center and there was an
Asian-American student center, but a first-gen center did not exist and now they’re starting to address that. No, no, no, how we’re getting drinks. Sorry, we’re done.
(audience laughing) You can talk to me out there. – Would y’all please. Would y’all please join me
in thanking Dr. Dynarski (audience applauding)
for a stimulating talk. We have a very, very, very
small token of our appreciation, which is quite large.
– Okay. – Thank you very much.
– Thank you. – More for you to pack home.
– Excellent, thank you. – So thank you all–
– Thanks very much. – Thank you all for coming. Dr. Dynarski will stay around a bit, and if you’re really polite you could maybe catch her in the hall where we will have hors d’oeuvres and non-alcoholic beverages, so thank you. (audience laughing) – Boo, boo.

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